Where do I start?? CH system & DHW...

[PeedOftec]

Firstly, I must say I am not conversant with this cylinder, but as it appears to be based on a thermal store, the radiators should be connected to the heating circuit outlets on the cylinder (5 & 6), the boiler/stove flow and returns to the post heating connections (1 & 2), whilst the solar connections are 3 & 4. Hence my belief that the boiler and stove need to be plumbed together before the cylinder as my previous post..

Because of the lack of hot water I would be loathed to plumb the rads into the tank, there is little enough DHW as it is!. No, the rads tee off before the tank and the high stat kicks in the CH pump at 90 deg C on the gravity flow from the stove to the tank. Theorectically an "injector tee" on the return draws SOME hot water through the DHW tank to keep a flow to the DHW to avoid robbing all the heat away from the tank.
It does mean the woodstove and hot tank are plumbed in parallel but one problem is the CH pump reverses the gravity flow through the tank when it kicks in?? (injector tee not working?) ....and I don't think you could put a one way valve in a gravity circ??

Driving me insane... and the plumber wants ME to take time off work to show HIM whats wrong with the system!!!!

 

[Norcon]

ACV's normally have an outstanding HW performance.
It's worth noting that the SLME 300 multi energy has only 126/L of HW storage so pretty small for 4/5 occupants.
Also the Smartline SL's primaries are connected top/bottom.
Your cylinder looks as though it is connected at the bottom only on 5 and 6.
I would have used 1 and the lower 2 of the two 2's on what they call post heating connections.
Also you have an UV cylinder being heated (what looks like directly) with a solid fuel stove which contravenes UK regulations afaik.
Ok acv have woodburners/pellet boilers in their schematics which you can say is solid fuel but modern appliances in this regard are highly advanced with controls superior to many standard boilers.
This forum has the details in the archives on how to acheive the connection safely.
It would be worth finding out what ACV advise in this regard.
There are a lot of renewable energy companies around at the moment offering superb solutions for a system like yours and these should have been your first choice IMO.

 

[PeedOftec]

ACV's normally have an outstanding HW performance.
It's worth noting that the SLME 300 multi energy has only 126/L of HW storage so pretty small for 4/5 occupants..

Yes, I know that now but I suspect the plumber thought 300 was the volume of sanitary water! What can I do about it now???

Also the Smartline SL's primaries are connected top/bottom.
Your cylinder looks as though it is connected at the bottom only on 5 and 6.
I would have used 1 and the lower 2 of the two 2's on what they call post heating connections..

The plumber has connected the oil into 5 on RHS and returns to oil boiler on 6 on RHSide. Wood stove it connected into 3 (supposed to be for solar) and out of 4. ACV technical suggested wood burner to go in on 1 top LHS and out of 6 on LHS and oil in on 2 LHS and out of 5 LHS.

Not being a plumber, what is the difference between, in this case, the primaries and the post heating connections? Are they not just a tapping into the external water jacket surrounding the inner tank? Or is there something else going on in there?

Also you have an UV cylinder being heated (what looks like directly) with a solid fuel stove which contravenes UK regulations afaik.
Ok acv have woodburners/pellet boilers in their schematics which you can say is solid fuel but modern appliances in this regard are highly advanced with controls superior to many standard boilers.
This forum has the details in the archives on how to acheive the connection safely.
It would be worth finding out what ACV advise in this regard.
There are a lot of renewable energy companies around at the moment offering superb solutions for a system like yours and these should have been your first choice IMO.

The guys at ACV have been helpful and yes I'm sure the ACV SLME tank is capable for the job, just a pity it isn't plumbed in correctly...., that is out of the hands of ACV unfortunately. And the multi fuel stove, capable of kicking out 20kw, but again it is no use if you cannot get that heat distributed correctly because of the plumbing.......

Looking back, hindsight and all that, yes, it looks like I didn't make the best choice of installer... I did try my best, got someone who was (is) HETAS registered and could do the oil side of things too. We got several quotes in and his was the most expensive, but thinking we were making the right decision, went with them. What more could I do??

I really am at a loss of the way forward now, the plumber is supposed to be here today and tomorrow to "sort it out" but I suspect I will get a long tale of how it takes time to "set these things up" and "get it balanced" and how "every one is different" and that "there will have to be compromises". One of the better quotes I got was how I have to "re-appraise the manner of use"... maybe I have to just use my £2500 multifuel stove as an ornament and run the oil boiler flat out?? So much for trying to be eco friemdly.
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The whole thing is just exasperating, lost all the enthusiasm for the project.
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[PeedOftec]

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Ok, I guess I need to start from basics... the first thing in working out a CH system is do a SAP calc on the property, correct?

Any takers?

S.
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[Agile]

Ok, just been crawing about in the loft, there is 5150mm from FFL to apex in loft. (Bungalow). The cold tanks base is about 4520 above FFL (finished floor Level)

In that space there has to be accomodated a woodstove, a hot water tank, heat leak rad and cold feed/expansion tanks.... in that order....

Cheers

S.

A wood stove in the loft of a bungalow?

Are you sure thats legal apart from the fire risk and the inconvenence of bringing all the wood up the ladder into the loft?

With that size of loft I am surprised that you have not earmarked it for your loft conversion!

 

[PeedOftec]

PMSL... LOL....

No, no, no.... the "space" referred to there is not the "loft space" but the space between the FFL and the apex of the roof. LOL

Stove in the loft, who heard the likes!! Second thoughts my plumber may suggest that yet!! (no, I haven't heard from him today, was supposed to be there sorting it out... Unless he is cracking on as we speak, and it will be all re-plumbed, working fine and dandy when I get back tonight???)

Will keep you posted.

 

[Norcon]

Peedoftec wrote

Not being a plumber, what is the difference between, in this case, the primaries and the post heating connections? Are they not just a tapping into the external water jacket surrounding the inner tank? Or is there something else going on in there?

ACV technical up in Fife recommend connecting the primary heat source flow at 1 and the lower 2 (as I thought)
If you have solar connected at the bottom coil then a 3 port valve on the return diverting between the two 2's allowing more solar gain when appropiate.
The recommendation for solid fuel is at 5 and 6.
Your first priority should have been to your DHW requirements thus the 600L would have been better in your case.
With solid fuel at the bottom then use 5 and 6 on the opposide side for radiators.
If the DHW is unvented then a standard solid fuel connection is a no no unless the DHW section is set up as vented or alternately have the system set up with a separate neutralizer/low loss header arrangement.
The "post" heating they refer to is a European term afaik and is the upper section of the primary water jacket that surrounds the inner stainless steel cylinder.

 

[PeedOftec]

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He's been! he's been!! Haven't seen what he's done but has at long last spoken to the stove manufacturers about the issue of lack of gravity circulation.... he's waiting for them to come back to him. Has moved the hi and low pipe stats, not quite sure why but we will see.

Was on the phone about 1hour, he can sell sand to the Arabs!!

 

[PeedOftec]

Peedoftec wrote

Not being a plumber, what is the difference between, in this case, the primaries and the post heating connections? Are they not just a tapping into the external water jacket surrounding the inner tank? Or is there something else going on in there?

ACV technical up in Fife recommend connecting the primary heat source flow at 1 and the lower 2 (as I thought)
If you have solar connected at the bottom coil then a 3 port valve on the return diverting between the two 2's allowing more solar gain when appropiate.
The recommendation for solid fuel is at 5 and 6.
Your first priority should have been to your DHW requirements thus the 600L would have been better in your case.
With solid fuel at the bottom then use 5 and 6 on the opposide side for radiators.
If the DHW is unvented then a standard solid fuel connection is a no no unless the DHW section is set up as vented or alternately have the system set up with a separate neutralizer/low loss header arrangement.
The "post" heating they refer to is a European term afaik and is the upper section of the primary water jacket that surrounds the inner stainless steel cylinder.

The diagram in the instructions have a couple 2's and a 5 on each side. Is it purely the "upper" connections are flow and the lower ones return? On a radiator the ideal connections are top to bottom, end to end I believe, in this case would it be better to go in on one side of the tank high up and return out of the other side of the tank, low down?

As our friend the plumber has already connected the oil boiler into RHS 5 (heating flow) and coming back out of 6 RHS (heating return) I intend to ask him to remove the stove from the solar coil in the first instance. ACV technical suggested the easiest would be to connect the wood stove to no 1 top LHS and return to the stove 6 and bottm LHS.

Me, I would chop all the pipes off it to start with and start again!

You mention a "bottom coil"? as far as I am aware there is only a bottom coil but I wil stand corrected?

What would you class as the "primary heat source". We have been running the stove only for quite a while now and I purposely haven't orderd any more oil until the stove side and DHW is sorted properly.

The DHW is vented. (there is a hot water loop runnning down the house to the bathroom as the property is 28m long . The loop is vented at the cylinder.

How can I tell the plumber to remove the brand new "undersized" store and replace it with the 600 like several people have recommended? The SLME600 is 600 litres TOTAL capacity (606 actually) and is still only 225 l sanitary capacity.

I appreciate all the advice and comments for you guys, a lot of you are obviously far more knowledgeable on the subject than I am, and probably my plumber too!!

Keep up the good work, feed me more info!! I will post some more pictures tonight after I see what he's done today.

Cheers

S.

 

[Norcon]

ACV technical suggested the easiest would be to connect the wood stove to no 1 top LHS and return to the stove 6 and bottm LHS.

Was talking to one of their people earlier and the recommendation I received concerning the solid fuel was 5 and 6 as a solid fuel stove is not the primary heat source.
The oil boiler is the primary heat source and should be connected at 1 and the lower 2 giving HW priority and top down fast re- heat. This is how the SL cylinders are connected also.
There's only one coil. Stating "bottom" was just a reference and the recomendation for the coil is "Solar".
Your in a bit of a pickle it would seem.
At least the HW cylinder is vented.

 

[PeedOftec]

ACV technical suggested the easiest would be to connect the wood stove to no 1 top LHS and return to the stove 6 and bottm LHS.

Was talking to one of their people earlier and the recommendation I received concerning the solid fuel was 5 and 6 as a solid fuel stove is not the primary heat source.
The oil boiler is the primary heat source and should be connected at 1 and the lower 2 giving HW priority and top down fast re- heat. This is how the SL cylinders are connected also.
There's only one coil. Stating "bottom" was just a reference and the recomendation for the coil is "Solar".
Your in a bit of a pickle it would seem.
At least the HW cylinder is vented.

Ok Norcon, points noted on the connections. I think the guys at ACV (Stuart) was trying to avoid too much re-piping. They also suggested the 600 model..

You say "giving hot water priority", sorry non comprende on that one... the oil boiler side is fully pumped and it tees off, one to the tank and one to the rads. after the pump (both circs with motorised valves) When the tank stat calls for heat it fires the boiler and opens the valve to the tank. And the same for the rads when the room stat calls for heat. Is that giving "hot water priority"? The rads don't go through the tank at all.

Yes, I'm in a bit of a pickle, at this rate I'll be blowing a gasket. I dropped the one to the plumber about wanting to connect solar!!! "Oh, you want to use solar now do you???" Well bugger me I said that from the onset as part of the original quotes I was getting in!! Just because I wasn't doing it there and then, through him, he decided to use the coil for the stove!!

Driving me insane.....

Well he has been today and re-sited the hi and lo pipe stats...(the ones he wired up incorrectly that I had to rewire!) the heat leak rads in the loft space are bouncing hot and there is probably a trickle of heat going into the tank as well hopefully! TBH the tank is hot, well it should be the stove has been on since 11:00 am! Going to do the washing up and have a bath and see what the recovery time is...(me and the tank!) the other 5 people in the house will have to wait!
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Cheers,

S.
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[Norcon]

You say "giving hot water priority", sorry non comprende on that one

Top down cylinder heating delivering the boiler heat closest to the draw of point as opposed to convection currents rising slowly from the lower section.

Going to do the washing up and have a bath and see what the recovery time is

You mean from a scalding.
Hope he fitted a gravity compatible tmv.

 

[PeedOftec]

You mean from a scalding.
Hope he fitted a gravity compatible tmv.

PMSL.... That was taken out completely after he couldn't get the air out of the DHW loop!!

 

[Norcon]

Oh dear.
You should be able to use a 22mm TMV providing it meets BSEN1287 for bathfill i.e. low pressure applications.
Not sure if the supplied acv one meets this specification. It will of course be 22mm.

 

[PeedOftec]

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• PeedOftec
• 18 May 2009
• 1

Untitled

• PeedOftec
• 19 May 2009
• 1

The woodstove is just through the hole in the wall.

See how many 90 degree bends you can count that the flow from the stove has to negotiate before it gets to the tank!!

Also note the 50mm rise from stove to tank!!