Why "No RCD protection on lighting circuit"?

Ah - light dawns. I put all my trust in the almighty CU god and now I see it is not infallible. So I have three lighting circuits without RCD protection. To do the job properly I now need 3 RCBOs to replace the 3 MCBs on the right of the CU. Can anybody please point me in the direction of a supplier of NSB type RCBOs that are interchangable with the MCBs? The cables are <50mm where they enter the switches - so the inspector is right!
As I implied, I thought that you might have that issue with buried cables going to switches! However, strictly speaking, you only need RCD protection for any new wiring which is buried <50mm deep. If any of the lighting circuits have no such new wiring, strictly speaking there is no obligation to RCD protect them. Suitable RCBOs are available from any electrical wholesaler (e.g. TLC) - maybe even the likes of Screwfix.
No overcurrent protection on Circuit 8 arose because the sockets were originally on a ring circuit with a 32A MCB. I split it into 2 radials but did not drop the MCB to 20A. I am putting the two radials on 2 seperate 16A MCBs.
Ah, right - so he worded that badly - it was a case of inadequate over-current protection, not no over-current protrection!

Kind Regards, John
 
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Well John I will tell the Inspector to be more accurate with his wording just after he has given me the all clear!

I note the suggestion about how expensive RCBOs are but I am more concerned to get the right type. I have found these (see photo) at TLC but they offer a type C or a type B. My wife thinks the CU is about 15 years old.

Anybody know which type I should go for? If C is later than B then its probably type B?

RCBO wylex.jpg

Many thanks to everyone that graciously contributed to this post!
 
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Anybody know which type I should go for? If C is later than B then its probably type B?
As flameport has told you, you want the same Type as now - i.e. B6. For your "education", Types "B" and "C" (for both MCBs & RCBOs) are not to do with 'age' but, rather, to the operating characteristics - a Type B must trip 'immediately' when the current is 5 times the device's 'rating' (so 30A for a B6) and a Type C must trip 'immediately' with 10 times rated current (i.e. 60A for a C6). There is also a Type D (must trip at 20 times rated current).
Many thanks to everyone that graciously contributed to this post!
You're welcome.

Kind Regards, John
 
Hi Ban-all-Sheds

And why not? I've wired a 30x30 extension including all lighting, sockets, induction range cooker and hood and got praise for the job from the inspector. If a person is sensible (and not arrogant) and does the right research and proceeds with caution I see no reason why a competent DIYer can't do basic electrical work - most of which I found to be very simple. When I felt a qualified electrician was needed (as in the case of connecting my 10mm cable end to the cooker and CU) I paid to have the work done. I absolutely won't go near a CU and the RCBO will be put in by a qualified electrician even though I know I could do it. Whilst doing the work I also took comfort from the fact that the local building control was going to check the work (for £296 :ROFLMAO:).

Hi again John. Thanks for informing about the difference between type B and type C. I'll get the B6 RCBO to replace the NSB06 MCB.

RCBO wylex.jpg

Once again many thanks for all comments.
 
Hi Ban-all-Sheds

And why not?
Because you do not know what B and C refer to on MCBs, and therefore you do not understand the basic concepts around what they do and how they perform, and therefore you are not competent to do circuit design.


If a person is sensible (and not arrogant) and does the right research and proceeds with caution I see no reason why a competent DIYer can't do basic electrical work
Circuit design is not basic.

And you clearly did not do the right research because you didn't find out about breaker characteristics before going ahead.


most of which I found to be very simple.
If you didn't know about MCB types, how did you know what Zs requirements you had?
 
I have not the latest regulation book so there may be some errors in my statements. But from what I believe the LABC inspector has to follow BS7671:2001 or similar which is not the latest BS7671 edition anyway. That is what the official approved Part P document says anyway. So this is before it was required to have RCD protection for all services to the bathroom which would clearly include most showers and also before the 50mm rules for items buried in the wall. RCD protection was required for sockets which could be used to supply outside appliances and I seem to remember some items in bathrooms.

Today scheme members have to follow BS7671:2008 amendment 3 which would include all cable buried less than 50 mm and all sockets under 32A but there is nothing to say a building inspector has to comply with BS7671:2008. Also the building inspector does not issue an electrical installation certificate only a completion certificate so it is open as to if he actually tests the loop impedance on all circuits.

Often the building inspector will employ an electrician to test and inspect and the electrician is likely a scheme member so will have to work to BS7671:2008 amendment 3 so the report to him would highlight errors like no RCD. If he is employing an electrician to test then he is unlikely to have the skill required to decide if the items highlighted are to 2008 or 2001 so in real terms he has to work to 2008 regulations even if they are not legally a requirement.

But under the Part P regulations I could wire a house to German regulations and the building inspector would have to accept that even though it does not comply with British standards in that sockets are not polarity fixed. I never understood why the Part P document did not say current edition of BS7671 or equivalent?, but it didn't.

As to earth wires there is no need to terminate into class II items but there is a need to run an earth with the line and neutral and also that earth loop impedance must be within limits. Also the line - neutral has limits more to do with volt drop and the idea of RCBO having to be type B, C, or D is open for debate. Since the tripping times with a earth - line fault are from the RCD part of the device just like with a TT system the earth loop impedance can be rather high over 200Ω is considered unstable. So it is the line - neutral fault which the type B, C, or D will need to match the loop impedance to trip in a very short time. Although the regulations gives 0.4 seconds for the line - earth fault I have found no reference to tripping times for a line - neutral fault.

However our switches often have a current rating so using other than type B could overload switches and could cause bulbs to weld into their holders if ionisation happens when they blow. So personally would always fit type B even if not strictly required.

Many inspection sheets do not record all readings taken, the IET version does not so although we should measure both line - neutral and line - earth impedance the fact it is not written down means often line - neutral impedance or prospective short circuit current which is really the same thing using a different unit is often not measured. It is however that measurement which shows what the volt drop will be and so where one has no idea of how much cable has already been used when extending a circuit is rather important to ensure volt drop is between limits and any MCB/RCBO will trip with the magnetic part.

Amendment 3 I am told has reduced the loop impedance permitted to ensure each type of MCB will trip. A type B should trip between 3 and 5 times rated current and we work on the 5 times so a 6A type B will trip with 30A. However the loop impedance takes into account voltage it would seem sensible to read the prospective short circuit current but instead with read the impedance and consider there may be a 5% volt drop so we take 218.5 volt as the working voltage and device that (ohms law) by 30 amp which gives us 7.28Ω as our maximum loop impedance.

However it is the volt drop which is really the limiting factor as with a DNO loop impedance of 0.35Ω any reading over 1.81Ω would mean over a 6.9 volt drop and a type D 6 amp MCB will need an earth loop impedance of less than 1.82Ω so if a lighting circuit complies with volt drop using a type D would not be a problem. The 44 meters of 1.5 mm² cable maximum to ensure a loop impedance is high enough seems a lot, until you start to measure up and down walls and across a ceiling to comply with 1/3 rule drilling the beams.

So in real terms one has to measure. Be it a loop impedance meter reading direct or a low ohm meter and adding the DNO reading given by enquiry it does not matter either is allowed. The LABC inspector however is not required to inspect and test all he has to do is verify some of your readings. He has to satisfy himself you know what you are doing. Hence why he does not have to complete an installation certificate you have to do that, all he does is check so random entries to see if correct.

As to if it all goes wrong who has to foot the bill or stand in court is another question. The LABC inspector is responsible for site safety so if you don't test correctly as with the Emma Shaw case then he would be in court and he would carry the can. But you would have to pay for the repairs to correct it.

Although we hear of cases where social services have been taken to court because baby x was injured as yet we have not seen the LABC inspector being taken to court because Mrs X was electrocuted. Until this happens it would seem the LABC inspector has rather a cushy number, he gets the money, but very little risk should his judgement be incorrect. Even if he makes a mistake unless he has some qualifications to show he has the skill required it will likely be his boss who is found guilty of using unskilled labour to do the work of inspecting. Hence why they often use electricians to inspect so they can collect the money without any risk to themselves.

Personally I am not worried about what the inspector says what I want is a safe house. So back in 1992 my whole house was RCD protected well before any regulations requiring it came out.

To my mind unless the inspector has a C&G2391 or C&G2392 he should not be inspecting electrics. But when I came to do my dad's house the inspector did not even seem to know what a C&G 2391 was, which means I don't really trust them.
 
I have not the latest regulation book so there may be some errors in my statements. But from what I believe the LABC inspector has to follow BS7671:2001 or similar which is not the latest BS7671 edition anyway. That is what the official approved Part P document says anyway.
I think you must be talking specifically about Wales. The 2013 version of Approved Document P ("for use in England") says that electrical installations should be designed and installed in accordance with BS7671:2008(2011) (i.e. Amendment 1 of BS7671:2008), which was the most recent amendment at the time the document was published.

Kind Regards, John
 
Hopefully no BCO would "therefore" disallow 'designed and installed in accordance with BS7671:2008(2015)' :D
 
I have to agree with BAS . Forgetting to terminate the earth wires is a bit worrying. Presumably you'd fitted the switches intending to remove them later and finish the job? You can't afford to forget things when you're doing electrics.
 
Hopefully no BCO would "therefore" disallow 'designed and installed in accordance with BS7671:2008(2015)' :D
Hopefully (and the same even in Wales!) :) However, the regulations really only move 'in one direction', so I doubt that there is anything that would be compliant with Amendment 3 which would not also be compliant with Amendment 1 (but, of course, not the converse).

Kind Regards, John
 
I have to agree with BAS . Forgetting to terminate the earth wires is a bit worrying. Presumably you'd fitted the switches intending to remove them later and finish the job? You can't afford to forget things when you're doing electrics.
Yes, that was rather worrying (even though CPC continuity was probably not reliant on CPCs being joined at switches) - but BAS's comments actually arose from the OP not understanding the difference between Type B and C MCBs/RCBOs, which is a bit different.

However, the totality of the story indicates that the system of BCO inspection has worked, and that this work is therefore going to end up as a safe and compliant installation. If DIYers (and non-self-certifying electricians) could be guaranteed not to make any mistakes, there would, after all, be no need for the inspections!

Kind Regards, John
 

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