Wind Turbines

[Deleted member 174758]

Remember that a wind turbines life has been said to be 20 years, What life are you going to use? What average winds speed are you going to use.

How long does it take to build 3,260mw of wind power not using the rate they are stated to produce but at the UK's average wind speed where they are installed.

And how much use is sporadic wind energy without some form of power storage facility (which we don't have unlike, say, the Polar Night sand heat storage facility at Vatajankoski, Finland)?

Wind farms are part of the local "scene" around here (we can see 7 from the hill above our house) partly because this isn't a rich Tory heartland, so we don't have a Tory MP or minister to object to them... A heck of a lot of the time there is no wind (especially on summer days), or the wind is too slow to generate power (below c.10 mph), or it is too windy for them and the blades need to be 'freewheeled' (disconnected from the gearbox so that ir won't disintegrate). So they might be capable of generating powet 25 tp 35% of the time. Of course, they turn a lot at night, when usage is at its' lowest...

What I am getting at is that for pushing 30 years we've had to put up with these eyesores, which incidentally are often built on 50 thousand year old peatlands (that, incidentally, they damage), knowing that they aren't working when they are most needed and that furthermore the the UK lacks any form of infrastructure to store the surplus energy they create when the grid doesn't require it. And all the while we are paying a green levy on our energy bills to fund this. No wonder many people round here are disenchanted with on-shore windfarms

 

[Deleted member 18243]

And how much use is sporadic wind energy without some form of power storage facility (which we don't have unlike, say, the Polar Night sand heat storage facility at Vatajankoski, Finland)?

Wind farms are part of the local "scene" around here (we can see 7 from the hill above our house) partly because this isn't a rich Tory heartland, so we don't have a Tory MP or minister to object to them... A heck of a lot of the time there is no wind (especially on summer days), or the wind is too slow to generate power (below c.10 mph), or it is too windy for them and the blades need to be 'freewheeled' (disconnected from the gearbox so that ir won't disintegrate). So they might be capable of generating powet 25 tp 35% of the time. Of course, they turn a lot at night, when usage is at its' lowest...

What I am getting at is that for pushing 30 years we've had to put up with these eyesores, which incidentally are often built on 50 thousand year old peatlands (that, incidentally, they damage), knowing that they aren't working when they are most needed and that furthermore the the UK lacks any form of infrastructure to store the surplus energy they create when the grid doesn't require it. And all the while we are paying a green levy on our energy bills to fund this. No wonder many people round here are disenchanted with on-shore windfarms

Shhhhhh, you are not supposed to criticise wind farms or the left-wing mafia will be on to you.

Did you watch the Lozza video? He explains the lies behind the claims that wind power is cheap.

 

[denso13]

Did you watch the Lozza video?

Yes. He's an idiot and his claims are easily disproved...

 

[IT Minion]

A lot of people who don't know much about renewables assume that no one has thought of these questions, or studied wind speeds, or mapped out a net zero power system for the UK.

, knowing that they aren't working when they are most needed and that furthermore the the UK lacks any form of infrastructure to store the surplus energy they create when the grid doesn't require it.

Inside £1bn pumped hydro plans to ‘more than double’ Britain’s electricity storage - Utility Week

Slated as the first large-scale pumped hydro storage scheme to be built in the UK for more than 30 years, Utility Week Innovate digs into plans to deliver up to 1.5GW and 30GWh of storage by 2030 at Coire Glas.

utilityweek.co.uk

 

[Deleted member 174758]

A lot of people who don't know much about renewables assume that no one has thought of these questions...

30 years ago they hadn't... And where in the UK is there a non-pumped storage power storage system? Without it you end up having to run gas turbines to take up the slack (because "Electric Mountain" on its' own cannot, and they never built the projected second station on Exmoor) - and burning hydrocarbons is still the major issue

PS Thank you for your (incorrect) assumption.

 

[IT Minion]

30 years ago they hadn't... And where in the UK is there a non-pumped storage power storage system? Without it you end up having to run gas turbines to take up the slack (because "Electric Mountain" on its' own cannot, and they never built the projected second station on Exmoor) - and burning hydrocarbons is still the major issue

PS Thank you for your (incorrect) assumption.

There's some small battery systems, but we're about 5 years behind the US (10 behind Australia) on big batteries with GW scale delivery.

Also, 30 years ago storage wasn't needed. It's only just useful now on a system level.

There hasn't been the economics before for storage, now there is. We might struggle for the last 10% of our electricity supply but we can worry about that when we get closer.

 

[Deleted member 174758]

Also, 30 years ago storage wasn't needed. It's only just useful now on a system level.

30 years ago we had our first two wind farms in this area. On a site visit at the time I do recall a senior Vestas engineer admitting that they were effectively throwing away energy at certain times of the night back then. There was also an admission that the small size of the earlier wind power stations made transmission losses significant. I have had the same sort of story from an ex-YEB power engineering manager more recently, that we lack enough storage and that no/insufficient investment is going into it

Either way, as it stands the generators still have far too high a reliance on gas turbine generators and in the last 12 or so years we have done far too little either to either improve home insulation, or harness tidal/wave power, or reduce consumption by transport

 

[IT Minion]

Im

30 years ago we had our first two wind farms in this area. On a site visit at the time I do recall a senior Vestas engineer admitting that they were effectively throwing away energy at certain times of the night back then. There was also an admission that the small size of the earlier wind power stations made transmission losses significant. I have had the same sort of story from an ex-YEB power engineering manager more recently, that we lack enough storage and that no/insufficient investment is going into it

Either way, as it stands the generators still have far too high a reliance on gas turbine generators and in the last 12 or so years we have done far too little either to either improve home insulation, or harmess tidal/wave power, or reduce consumption by transport

not arguing most of those points. The exception being curtailment. Last year we lost around 2.2TWh to curtailment, out of something like 80TWh (rough estimate). That's about 2.5%. Curtailment happens but it's small at the moment, which is why we haven't needed storage.

 

[ajohn]

7GW

GW are not much use. You need to add hours and device lifetime. This also means storage will be needed with wind and solar. There is also no way of getting around average wind speed where ever they are located. What ever it happens to be - it will be an average over a range too. Near zero will figure at times.

I have seen a solar powered hydrogen single "fuel pump". I've wondered if it could me a ~250 miles range fill.

 

[IT Minion]

GW are not much use. You need to add hours and device lifetime. This also means storage will be needed with wind and solar. There is also no way of getting around average wind speed where ever they are located. What ever it happens to be - it will be an average over a range too. Near zero will figure at times.

I have seen a solar powered hydrogen single "fuel pump". I've wondered if it could me a ~250 miles range fill.

No you don't need to worry about device lifetime. That's factored into the prices. And average windspeed is already covered by capacity factor.

What you're trying to describe is when there is a prolonged low wind period over the entire UK and a very high proportion of renewables over the winter. This has been modelled heavily.

Until we have a much much higher proportion of renewables in the grid we aren't going to run out of power due to low wind. We might run out of power this winter due to Gas though.

 

[Deleted member 174758]

So why did the Tories pull the plug on expansion of renewable energy generation? Couldn't be something to do with the fossil fuel lobby, surely? Not that any of our recent PMs were at any time involved with the fossil fuel industry. What's that you say? Liz who? And just why does net zero cost us more?

 

[IT Minion]

Net zero will cost more than going to 5% or 10% fossil fueled. But the only experts that think there's a need for more nuclear power also say the price has to drop by 40-60% to make sense. (IEA Net Zero model). The IEA has always been skeptical about renewables and has always underestimated them though.

 

[ajohn]

What you're trying to describe is when there is a prolonged low wind period over the entire UK

No just some of it will do.
The USA storage is used for load levelling by the way not backing up wind.

 

[IT Minion]

No just some of it will do.
The USA storage is used for load levelling by the way not backing up wind.

...and it has also been modelled a lot. If you care you'll find some of the write ups of the modeling with some googling.

 

[Justin Passing]

Roll on thorium reactors, maybe. Last a bit longer.

The energy market/pricing seems to be very distorted. I don't know enough about how that works, but wherever you look there's someone charging a lot, regardless of what the power actually costs to produce.
Onshore wind may be to be worst for that. Private developments, private profits, while they sell at the price of gas and annoy locals who get no benefit.
I'd be much happier if the lot were nationalised, so that the UK owned everything, charging the population according to cost not "market prices". Sure, anything excess, sell off.

I read that in California they say you need 20% gas/nuclear to go with wind to allow for low wind times. I imagine that if the UK has wind farms widely spaced, we might get a more even average than Ca.
Itmin? I assume you work in the field ?