Wind Turbines

[Notch7]

But only when the wind blows in the appropriate wind speed window, when it doesn't we need the Nukes/Gas Plants

That is not a argument against wind turbines.

the price WE pay for wind generated power is MORE than that from Conventional equipment

Wind generated power is cheaper to produce

“An analysis of the levelized costs of energy {LCOE) by Lazard investment bank indicates that wind and solar energy are five times cheaper than nuclear. The report also concluded that renewables remain less expensive even when we include storage and network costs”

“Between 2009 and 2021, renewables like wind and solar have declined by 90 percent, while nuclear power has increased by 33 percent”

Nuclear Power Versus Renewable Energy

While renewable energy is widely touted as the future of energy, nuclear power is increasingly being discussed as a necessary part

changeoracle.com

The government needs to remove the price fixing of wind power

The government gets considerably more lobbying money from gas and oil than wind

Maybe that tells us why it’s not being done

 

[IT Minion]

But only when the wind blows in the appropriate wind speed window, when it doesn't we need the Nukes/Gas Plants.
By the way JohnD, They are not Windmills, Windmills were used to produce flour, these monstrosities are Wind Turbines.
They are not saving us a fortune at all, the price WE pay for wind generated power is MORE than that from Conventional equipment, that is why the Supply companies don't buy from Wind stations when they can buy it more cheaply from conventional source. This is why we see so many Wind Turbines stationary even during the appropriate Wind speed window.
This was my point of the original posting on this thread. The government needs to remove the price fixing of wind power, after all the wind companies dont have fuel costs to recover, so why should their prices be fixed to the price of Fossil Fuels.
Doesn't make sense to a simple mind such as mine.

Most of this is wrong.

Wind turbines are generally on a 'use this first' contract, like nuclear power, so they have to be paid. In the event they were on the standard free market price then they would just let it run because otherwise they'd be losing money out of pique, it's not like they have to pay for fuel. But most are on a renewables obligation (? the old pre 2014 scheme) or CfD rate so it's irrelevant.

The price fixing mechanism you're talking about (by the way if their prices are fixed to gas how can they be more expensive?), isn't in place for anything built since 2014 and the CfD auction system.

I agree that unpinning wind, solar and hydro from expensive gas prices is worth doing.

 

[Hysteresis]

Wind generators sell their electricity at low prices under fixed contracts. Additionally, every MW they produce is a heap less gas we, as a nation, have to buy.

The price you pay delivered to your home is set differently. Blame your government.

For example (if it ever gets built) the price the government has agreed to pay the French/Chinese Nukes is far higher.

You are missing the point JohnD. If the Electrical distributers pay Less for Wind Turbine Generated Power, then why do these turbines lay Idle for a lot of the time, that can only be that the Electrical distributers pay more highly for the power from the conventional generators for contractual reasons otherwise they would always buy from the cheapest source. Maybe is it is that as the Wind source is unreliable due to the wind window the Power distributers are forced into buying from conventional generators because they are more reliable.
I am not solely blaming the Power distributers, maybe the Government are to blame, I am not concerned as to who is to blame but whoever it is they need to be sorted out. The only reason I can see that Wind Turbines lay idle is that contractually the distributers are tied to conventional generation due to their inherent reliability.

 

[Hysteresis]

Wind generators sell their electricity at low prices under fixed contracts. Additionally, every MW they produce is a heap less gas we, as a nation, have to buy.

The price you pay delivered to your home is set differently. Blame your government.

For example (if it ever gets built) the price the government has agreed to pay the French/Chinese Nukes is far higher.

Nortch/IT Minion, I am not against wind Turbines, on the contrary, I am pro WInd Turbine for CO2 emission reasons.
Stop Waffling and address the original question. WHY DO WIND TURBINES STAND IDLE IN THE WIND WINDOW IF IT IS CHEAPER FOR DISTRIBUTERS TO BUY POWER FROM THAT SOURCE INSTEAD OF NUKE AND GAS.

 

[JohnD]

... WIND TURBINES STAND IDLE IN THE WIND...

That is your assertion.

https://uk.search.yahoo.com/search;_ylt=AwrIfmqJCf9lno8ZGAdLBQx.;_ylc=X1MDMjExNDcxNzAwMwRfcgMyBGZyA2dlY3MEZnIyA3NhLWdwLXNlYXJjaARncHJpZAM4aWVzTWhZalFvT3BVZC4xazRfVVJBBG5fcnNsdAMwBG5fc3VnZwM0BG9yaWdpbgN1ay5zZWFyY2gueWFob28uY29tBHBvcwMxBHBxc3RyA3doeSBhcmUgd2luZCB0dXJiaW5lcyBub3QgcnVubmpuZwRwcXN0cmwDMzMEcXN0cmwDMzkEcXVlcnkDd2h5JTIwYXJlJTIwd2luZCUyMHR1cmJpbmVzJTIwbm90JTIwcnVubmluZyUyMHRvZGF5BHRfc3RtcAMxNzExMjEyOTQ4BHVzZV9jYXNlAw--?p=why+are+wind+turbines+not+running+today&fr2=sa-gp-search&fr=gecs&mkr=8

Your claim about pricing is incorrect.

 

[Hysteresis]

John, Read the link to which you refer. It does not address the question. I am more than happy to accept my claim on Pricing is incorrect.
BUT Please stop waffling and answer the question of "WHY DO WIND TURBINES STAND IDLE DURING THE WIND WINDOW IF POWER FROM THEM IS CHEAPER." Gas Stations are easy to switch off and on as required and Nuclear can reduce power easily and quickly unlike the Old Dirty Coal stations. Therefore Gas and Nuclear should be used to supply power requirement variations and the WInd Turbines run continuously to supply the base load. I have read somewhere that some WInd Generators are paid NOT to produce power. That seems a crazy situation if it is true. I am not concerned as to who is to blame other than it be identified, addressed and sorted out.
I am a simple man and my question is easy to understand, the problem is nobody seems to be able to address the question.

 

[JohnD]

When companies wishing to build windfarms apply for a licence, they offer a price for the electricity to be delivered for 15 years. Windfarms are quite cheap to run, needing no fuel and not much maintenence or staffing. The government sells the licences to the companies bidding the lowest wholesale prices. The more electricity they generate and sell, the more money they make, but only at their bid price.

Retail pricing is different. You (the consumer) pay a price derived from the cost of buying all the electricity the country needs at that moment. Interestingly, if there is a shortage, and some electricity has to be bought from a high-cost supplier to make up the numbers, that high price is considered to be the market price, and all suppliers get it, even the low cost ones.

But the windfarms don't get to keep it. They only keep their bid price.

The “contracts for difference” guarantee wind-power companies fixed prices to sell electricity for the following 15 years. If the market price falls below the contract price, the government subsidises the difference. If the market is higher, the companies pay money back to the government.

So when prices are high, excess flows into government coffers, almost as if they were charging an energy tax.

If you don't like that, blame your government.

 

[JohnD]

If some windfarms are deliberately turned off, it is sometimes for maintenance (including the grid). Sometimes it is because transmission lines are not adequate or have not yet been built. If there is a fault in the grid, the windfarm may receive a subsidy payment because they are being prevented from selling electricity through no fault of their own. Sometimes it is because they are unsuitable for current wind conditions. Generally, windfarms produce as much as they possibly can, because that is how they make their money.

 

[IT Minion]

Nuclear can reduce power easily and quickly

They can't in general. Some new ones can ramp down over a few hours by venting steam instead of using it, but they don't save any money by doing so. To actually ramp down or up takes them a day or so.

What turbines are you thinking of that lay idle all the time? Older, smaller ones do have much narrower operating ranges and do sit more or less still for most of the time. New big offshore ones are spinning most of the time.

 

[IT Minion]

Nortch/IT Minion, I am not against wind Turbines, on the contrary, I am pro WInd Turbine for CO2 emission reasons.
Stop Waffling and address the original question. WHY DO WIND TURBINES STAND IDLE IN THE WIND WINDOW IF IT IS CHEAPER FOR DISTRIBUTERS TO BUY POWER FROM THAT SOURCE INSTEAD OF NUKE AND GAS.

Which wind farm are you thinking of? Look at an old onshore, but large for it's time, farm like Hadyard Hill Wind Farm, https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadyard_Hill_Wind_Farm

It has a capacity factor of around 0.2-0.3 depending on the weather that year.

Hadyard Hill Wind Farm - Power-Station-Dictionary

osuked.github.io

So you'd expect that to be spinning maybe 40% of the time. Due to weather in the UK that's mostly going to happen in the dark (overnight and winter).

Anything older or smaller is likely to be spinning even less of the time.

For bigger modern offshore farms they're hitting 0.4-0.5 and spin most hours of the day as there's nearly always enough wind to get some power, even if it's not running at full power.

 

[IT Minion]

I've checked the first page and based on that you mean Teeside wind farm for the offshore one.

Teeside had a capacity factor of 0.3 last year. For the age (2014) and size (2.5MW turbines) that's fairly typical for a farm that age and size.

I have no idea how it is contracted as it was originally planned/approved in 2004. Back then offshore wind was quite new so it took forever to build and get planning, even for such an easy installation.

I couldn't find any 25 x 3MW farms but they'll have similar characteristics to Teeside. Old and small means they stand idle a lot.

 

[Hysteresis]

I've checked the first page and based on that you mean Teeside wind farm for the offshore one.

Teeside had a capacity factor of 0.3 last year. For the age (2014) and size (2.5MW turbines) that's fairly typical for a farm that age and size.

I have no idea how it is contracted as it was originally planned/approved in 2004. Back then offshore wind was quite new so it took forever to build and get planning, even for such an easy installation.

I couldn't find any 25 x 3MW farms but they'll have similar characteristics to Teeside. Old and small means they stand idle a lot.

Hi IT, your Teesside Windfarm Statistics look correct, but I observe a recently constructed windfarm 1 mile from my home, it consists of 18 - 3MW units and is a very new construction with in the last 5 Years, and even this New installation lays idle for a lot of the time. I can't get an accurate figure for time the turbines are idle, but they are idle or partially idle during suitable Wind Windows, and it just seems madness to have units such as these idle when they dont consume energy. They should be part of the Base load production to enable Gas and Oil stations to be shut down, It may possibly be due to do with the efficiency of conventional station running at reduced power, but the fact remains, Wind Turbines should be utilised on a continuous basis to supply the base load.
It is all Madness to my SImple Mind.

 

[IT Minion]

Hi IT, your Teesside Windfarm Statistics look correct, but I observe a recently constructed windfarm 1 mile from my home, it consists of 18 - 3MW units and is a very new construction with in the last 5 Years, and even this New installation lays idle for a lot of the time. I can't get an accurate figure for time the turbines are idle, but they are idle or partially idle during suitable Wind Windows, and it just seems madness to have units such as these idle when they dont consume energy. They should be part of the Base load production to enable Gas and Oil stations to be shut down, It may possibly be due to do with the efficiency of conventional station running at reduced power, but the fact remains, Wind Turbines should be utilised on a continuous basis to supply the base load.
It is all Madness to my SImple Mind.

They should be idle most of the time. Thats just how the physics works.

The Middle moor wind farm near Berwick is very similar. It was completed In 2013 but is otherwise identical.

Middlemoor Wind Farm

Middlemoor Wind Farm Page shows capacity of project and map location, in the case of wind farms, detail turbine locations

www.energymap.co.uk

It has an average capacity factor of between 15% and 35% through the year. Lowest in the summer months and highest in the winter. But even in the winter it won't be spinning half of the time.

Wind turbines work better as they get bigger. 3MW, 125m tall, units are small. Dogger bank C is going for 14MW, 260m tall units. They'll be averaging closer to 50% over a year.

 

[Hysteresis]

They should be idle most of the time. Thats just how the physics works.

Thats is a very strange comment to make. My opinion is that they should be generation 100% of the time in the Wind Window (not Idle MOST of the time) so they provide the Base Load from a zero emission source, then allow the dirty generators provide the load swings. Nothing at all to do with physics, it's common sense. Physics is the science of generation in this instance.
What on earth is the point of having a generator only operating 15-35% of the time? That is ridiculous, as it suggests we have too many wind Turbines. They should only be shut down for Maintenance or Repair or conditions being outside of the Wind WIndow.

 

[IT Minion]

Thats is a very strange comment to make. My opinion is that they should be generation 100% of the time in the Wind Window (not Idle MOST of the time) so they provide the Base Load from a zero emission source, then allow the dirty generators provide the load swings. Nothing at all to do with physics, it's common sense. Physics is the science of generation in this instance.
What on earth is the point of having a generator only operating 15-35% of the time? That is ridiculous, as it suggests we have too many wind Turbines. They should only be shut down for Maintenance or Repair or conditions being outside of the Wind WIndow.

That's not how the physics works.

When there is wind they do generate, but you don't know what the wind conditions are at the location of the turbine or at 120 meters up.

Again It isn't a case of turning them off, it's that you have unrealistic expectations of how often they will be running and how often they'll be running at full tilt.