write a reply 2

[ceraunic_level]

Following on from RF lighting thread

I have had a quick go at a letter


Dear PE


I read with interest the letter from Mr England. Red Mist for Red Tape

I feel they are a many points raised that deserve comment.

I think all electricians would agree that experience is priceless, but soon loses its value if not backed up by knowledge of current regulations. products, working practices, laws, technical advances etc.

Not wanting to join a professional body because they will want to see qualifications.

I find this dangerous and out dated thinking.
Why no qualifications, is Mr England still working to the 15th edition? Has the 16th and 17th passed him by.
Reading technical articles in a trade publication is hardly a professional attitude to your ongoing training needs (No offence PE)
Of course training is ongoing, does he really believe that he knows all there is to know.

Wanting 2 million pounds insurance cover. Has Mr England actually looked for quotes, the premiums are quite small, and if that is a bar to him becoming registered, I wonder what other costs and corners is he prepared to cut.

Then they would be an inspectors visit. Well I guess you could just write and tell them that all is well. Of course your work needs to be looked at when you join a scheme. What would be the point otherwise.

I do understand there is a lot of concern about Part P and its associated schemes, and its not perfect and needs looking at. Electrical contracting does need a professional body.


Ah, the old Megger, never let me down yet. Heaven forbid you spend any money on being equipped to do your job properly. He even complains about doing asbestos awareness training. Is their any price he is prepared to pay, his health?

I can understand the reluctance to give certificates. It means he is not prepared to stand by his work. However I find that a very poor, lazy practice.
How does he normally record his findings when working on an installation (Fag Packet?). Does the person who pays you not deserve to have a record of the work you have done.
How do you know the work you have done is satisfactory. Is it a case of out of sight out of mind. No certificate, no come back.

You letter sounds like the moaning s of a person who wants the easy life, a person with little regard for theprofessionalism your trade now expects. 30 years in the trade, perhaps its time to rethink your attitude, or retire.

 

[ceraunic_level]

Hmmmm.

Re read what I wrote last night, might be a bit to strong towards the end.

 

[RF Lighting]

Certainly a good starting point.

I'll see if I can revise it over the weekend.

 

[securespark]

I've been doing this 20 odd years & I'd be the first to hold up my hands and say, "you NEVER stop learning."

I would follow that with "and if you think you have, think again."

I think he is actually bordering on the criminal, trading and working as he claims to.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

I don't want to start the hoo-ha up again, but if it's genuine there's no "bordering on" about it at all.

 

[hairyben]

My problem with part P is IT'S THE LAW! but you can ignore it if you like.

Now I should love part P; 4 years ago I was an unregistered spark, had been working for myself for a couple of years and was scraping by, just.

Part P comes along and I registered, had my MFT calibrated for the first time, tightened the ship up and more or less embraced it. This wasn't because I liked the idea of more regulation- I despise it - but I've seen too much, first hand, of the reasons the market needed regulation, and believe me something was needed. I accepted the need for me to increase my costs, paperwork, headstress, and all of that in the hope that standards would improve. Not my standards- I'd always worked to the 16th, often people having rewires would ask about an NIC-EIC certificate, sometimes in the middle of a job. This was never a problem- a local NIC man would be contacted to test & issue on the last day, and the customer would pay direct before paying me my final 50% installment.

Many others, especially the older boys, decided all this new fangled paperwork wasn't for them, and they jacked it in. I've done great, there probably has never been a better time to be an electrician.

But part P, it's aims and objectives? What a total failure. All it's achieved is making those in my boat up their prices; so-called electricians still do poor work, they still rip off customers with substandard installations, they frequently leave them in the lurch when building control want an EIC. I've had installations whose "paperwork is there" but which I refuse to touch, I've had installation work done by kitchen/bathroom fitters and others with no paperwork and no idea of what they were doing, except that "stuff needs a live (which is the one that hurts) and it needs a nootral to work."

What I'm saying is, whats the point of making new rules if they're not gonna be enforced? I don't much care for being asked for evidence of my "customer complaint procedure" and my "health and safety policy statement" and all the other silly little hoops some jerkoff conjours up, when this was supposed to be all about electrical safety standards, but I played the game.

Can someone tell me why I bothered? I've done well financially, but I never did lust after money, I'd like to think there should be more to it than that.

so yeah, when I read that someone else just didn't and doesn't bother, a part of me just has to say "fair do's, looks like I'm the mug"

 

[Click-Sure]

Which scheme you with then hairyben?

The letter in PE smacks of fakery, tbh.

Still, if it is real it makes me wonder why I pay nearly hundreds-after-hundreds a year just in operating costs before I even lift a screwdriver! ELECSA membership, public liability, professional indemnity, cablibration, updated publications and update training soon mounts up.

Still, on the plus side, a mate of mine, a builder who used to do all his own electrics and threw-in new consumer units (no testing) on saturday mornings for a cheeky £350. Since part P he wont even change a lightswitch. Good things have come I suppose, and it has seemed to make the customer more aware, allthough a lot seem to think part P just means that they have to get an electrician in, not just any man and his dog off the street, not a lot is known about notification, and some think only niceic will do! The cheek of it!

 

[hairyben]

I'm NIC DI

Planning to go approved contractor at some stage.

Though that, if you're gonna be registered, might as well be the bunch who've been doing it 50 years and are virtually the electrical safety "brand"- people don't ring you up and ask for a periodic, they ask for an nic-cert. the johnny-come-latelys don't have the same appeal to many customers.

TBH honest, can't really complain, apart from irritating little rubbish like complaint procedures they more or less know the score, the inspectors are strict but fair. How do you find the rivalry?


As for the letter, it may be a fake, but if so it's a characture of real thoughts, feelings and motives so it's relevant.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

My problem with part P is IT'S THE LAW! but you can ignore it if you like.

The same can be said of many laws.

I accepted the need for me to increase my costs, paperwork, headstress, and all of that in the hope that standards would improve.

If you were already doing everything properly, and working to Professional standards, and exhibiting absolute Professionalism in all aspects of your business, how much extra did registering really cost you? Per hour - how much did your costs increase?

Many others, especially the older boys, decided all this new fangled paperwork wasn't for them, and they jacked it in.

Remind me again for how long the Wiring Regulations have required testing and certification?

But part P, it's aims and objectives? What a total failure.

If you regard it as a failure then that's probably because you don't understand what its aims and objectives were.

All it's achieved is making those in my boat up their prices

If you were already doing everything properly, and working to Professional standards, and exhibiting absolute Professionalism in all aspects of your business, how much extra did registering really cost you? Per hour - how much did your costs increase?

so-called electricians still do poor work, they still rip off customers with substandard installations, they frequently leave them in the lurch when building control want an EIC.

Yup - and there are dodgy builders, dodgy plumbers, dodgy roofers, dodgy joiners, dodgy plasterers, dodgy window fitters, dodgy kitchen fitters, dodgy gardeners, dodgy hairdressers, dodgy finance salesmen, dodgy taxi drivers, dodgy doctors, dodgy cooks, dodgy solicitors...

That's life - get over it.

What I'm saying is, whats the point of making new rules if they're not gonna be enforced? I don't much care for being asked for evidence of my "customer complaint procedure" and my "health and safety policy statement" and all the other silly little hoops some jerkoff conjours up, when this was supposed to be all about electrical safety standards, but I played the game.

And have you ever reported any substandard work to TSO or Building Control?

People whinge all the time about cowboys "getting away with it", and "nobody enforces it", but suggest that they might like to play a part in the process and it's "I'm not a grass" and "it's nothing to do with me".

I meant what I said in the other thread - if I worked for PE and that letter had arrived I'd have been straight on the phone to the authorities in Abergavenny with all the details I could provide.

Can someone tell me why I bothered? I've done well financially, but I never did lust after money, I'd like to think there should be more to it than that.

Yes, there is - it's called pride in what you do, it's called Professionalism, it's called acting in the best interests of your clients.

so yeah, when I read that someone else just didn't and doesn't bother, a part of me just has to say "fair do's, looks like I'm the mug"

Are you a mug for not driving like an idiot and getting there a few minutes quicker?

Are you a mug for insuring and taxing your vehicle?

Are you a mug for not stealing your sarnie from Tesco?

No matter how low you sink I can guarantee you there'll be someone lower.

That's life - get over it and take a pride in yourself and what you do.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Still, if it is real it makes me wonder why I pay nearly hundreds-after-hundreds a year just in operating costs before I even lift a screwdriver!

There are people out there driving without licences, insurance or road tax.

Do you wonder to the same extent why you bother with those?

ELECSA membership, public liability, professional indemnity, cablibration, updated publications and update training soon mounts up.

Apart from the first, every one of those are expenses that a responsible Professional would have anyway.

not a lot is known about notification, and some think only niceic will do! The cheek of it!

Unless they've lowered their standards to match, I never understood why NAPIT never tackled NICEIC over their 5-day-wonder DI scheme. I know that if I'd been NAPIT registered I'd have handed out leaflets explaining just what a crock that was with every quote.

 

[Click-Sure]

I have lost one job that i know of because Im not a member of niceic. There may be more I don't know about. Gaining ELECSA membership I found was a very hassle free process and gives me the only thing I need from a scheme, a simple, affordable way to comply with Part P, most of my business comes from the quality of my work, not somebody elses logo on my business card!

British gas use ELECSA, and they've got more sparks than you'd think. Many many nic DI's that I've spoken to have, or plan to jack them in and move over to the ELECSA brand, and if that boosts it in my local area, happy days. I'm not a fan of monopoly's (unless I own all the green and blue squares) so competition is a good thing.

Yes, they have been running 50 years, the ECA has been around twice that, and they now own ELECSA.

I see a lot of vans around now with both the NICEIC and ECA logos on the back of them.

 

[Click-Sure]

I don't disagree with you for a second BAS, I suppose "I wonder why I bother" is such a throwaway phrase these days!

I'm quite happy to remain a professional, and unlike Mr England I don't have to make excuses or lie when people ask me about certificates or part P.

edit:

Just found this on the NAPIT site, in thier FAQs section:

Under the electrical scheme do you have a Domestic Installers Scheme?

We do not have a Domestic Installers Scheme because there are far too may people doing short courses and calling themselves 'Domestic Electricians'. Due to the danger not only to the consumer but also from shock risk to the installer we have two scopes for Electrical one for Electricians and one for non electricians that carry out a small type of minor electrical work as part of their main trade. There are also a number of properties in the UK that have a 3 Phase supply and therefore it is hard to justify a Domestic Installer Scheme.


Are nic DI's not allowed to notify work concerning 3 phase? News to me!

 

[ban-all-sheds]

I'm not a fan of monopoly's (unless I own all the green and blue squares)

Oh no - just like in real life, a bigger low-cost empire is better - get the browns & pale blues, or purples and oranges to catch the jailbirds, chuck up hotels for less than the cost of a single blue house, and watch the money steadily roll in. Save yours for the few times you're unlucky enough to land somewhere expensive.

And laugh when property taxes are levied

so competition is a good thing.

I just wish they would actually compete - hard.

In another competitive marketing puzzle, I never understood why BSI didn't make more of their scheme. The recognition of BSI and the Kitemark must be higher than the rest put together.

 

[hairyben]

I have lost one job that i know of because Im not a member of niceic. There may be more I don't know about. Gaining ELECSA membership I found was a very hassle free process and gives me the only thing I need from a scheme, a simple, affordable way to comply with Part P, most of my business comes from the quality of my work, not somebody elses logo on my business card!

British gas use ELECSA, and they've got more sparks than you'd think. Many many nic DI's that I've spoken to have, or plan to jack them in and move over to the ELECSA brand, and if that boosts it in my local area, happy days. I'm not a fan of monopoly's (unless I own all the green and blue squares) so competition is a good thing.

Yes, they have been running 50 years, the ECA has been around twice that, and they now own ELECSA.

I see a lot of vans around now with both the NICEIC and ECA logos on the back of them.

why are they thinking of jacking nic?

Never really had a problem with them- pay the dosh, annual inspection, see you next year. Many customers don't know, or want to know anything about electrical reg schemes, NIC is a by word and it's easier to say "yes you'll have a NIC cert" with a reassuring nod than it is to try to explain how the certificate you'll give then is just as good.

Like you, my works all word-of-mouth happy customers and I'm sure I wouldn't lose much if I weren't NIC, it's just nice and easier to have something customers reconise. I'm not evan gonna pretend it means more- I've seen evidence to the contrary, for us it's just compliance, the end- but we don't by nature of our work deal with knowledgeable people, and you can't blame a customer for thinking NIC is what they want.