2amp and 5amp plugs and sockets

[JohnW2]

Are youmaware that the 15A and to a lesser extent 5A are still the mainstay for incandescent stage lighting and while we are still in this silly downlight fashion a lot of new builds include them for table lamps.

Yes, I'm aware of all that, but I still believe that they represent a tiny proportion of all the <16A plugs/sockets in use, and imagine that has been the case for a long time ('decades').

Kind Regards, John

 

[Astra99]

The Indian sub-continent, as far as I am aware, still use BS546 5A and 15A plugs, but BS1363 and Schuko also seem to be used in newer properties. Even with BS1363, I understand they use 16A radial circuits. Whether or not their square-pin plugs are fused I am not sure.

 

[JohnW2]

The Indian sub-continent, as far as I am aware, still use BS546 5A and 15A plugs, but BS1363 and Schuko also seem to be used in newer properties. ...

That may well be true.

In my last post, and the prior related one, I was, of course, talking about the UK.

Kind Regards, John

 

[SUNRAY]

what romms in new builds have 5A sockets then ?

I'm finding that quite often both reception rooms are being fitted with 2A or 5A sockets for low level lighting and even kitchens for under cupboard lighting.

 

[SUNRAY]

The Indian sub-continent, as far as I am aware, still use BS546 5A and 15A plugs, but BS1363 and Schuko also seem to be used in newer properties. Even with BS1363, I understand they use 16A radial circuits. Whether or not their square-pin plugs are fused I am not sure.

One of the places I worked seemed to have an amazing turnover on 15A extention leads and 'they' started watching by adding asset numbers and stock checking in and out per show. It turned out all 3 Indians who worked there were 'sending them home' when every show was de-rigged to the tune of up to 10. Any Shuko that 'turned up' on a show also went the same way.

 

[SUNRAY]

Yes, I'm aware of all that, but I still believe that they represent a tiny proportion of all the <16A plugs/sockets in use, and imagine that has been the case for a long time ('decades').

Kind Regards, John

I'm sure you're right but please don't underestimate the size of the stock held per rental company and the number of rental companies across the UK. Then add the number of theatres across the UK and the number of schools. Then add in the number of companies who have an auditorium or presentation suite followed by the number of gyms and rehearsal studios. Yes I agree this quantity does not compete with 1363 plugs but it is still a huge quantity.
A local one man band AV guy's asset register shows nearly 2000 items relevant to 15A, including extention leads, adapters, grelcos, spiders etc. but excluding kit with plugs (eg spotlamps and dimmers)

 

[JohnW2]

I'm sure you're right but please don't underestimate the size of the stock held per rental company and the number of rental companies across the UK. Then add the number of theatres across the UK and the number of schools. Then add in the number of companies who have an auditorium or presentation suite followed by the number of gyms and rehearsal studios. Yes I agree this quantity does not compete with 1363 plugs but it is still a huge quantity.....

I never suggested that the number of 15A/5A items around was not very large (or 'huge'!) - but if one guesses that there could be, as a very very rough guesstimate, possibly around half a billion BS1363 sockets in service (and 'in stock') in the UK, I still reckon that the BS546 ones are 'an extremely small proportion' of the total!

Kind Regards, John

 

[SUNRAY]

I never suggested that the number of 15A/5A items around was not very large (or 'huge'!) - but if one guesses that there could be, as a very very rough guesstimate, possibly around half a billion BS1363 sockets in service (and 'in stock') in the UK, I still reckon that the BS546 ones are 'an extremely small proportion' of the total!

Kind Regards, John

I think your estimate is way under. just a quick think of things that are plugged in permanently at home is at least 40 for just the 2 of us so assuming 20 per person x 70M = 1.4B. I'm not going to offer a realistic estimation of numbers of 546's but say 1% could be quite feasible.

 

[JohnW2]

I think your estimate is way under. just a quick think of things that are plugged in permanently at home is at least 40 for just the 2 of us so assuming 20 per person x 70M = 1.4B.

You could well be right. I was talking about sockets, and was being extremely conservative, estimating an average of something like 20 per household. However, particularly given that that ignores all commercial and industrial premises, I'm sure the total could easily be two or three times my very conservative estimate (and problably much more for plugs, since many/most of us probably have more things with plugs than we have sockets) - so your 1.4 billion (perhaps even a lot more, particularly for plugs) could easily be very credible.

I'm not going to offer a realistic estimation of numbers of 546's but say 1% could be quite feasible.

I haven't got a clue, but I would/could not argue with a suggestion of 1%. Mind you, as I'm suspect you might point out, even that would amount to 14 million if the BS1363s were 1.4 billion.

Kind Regards, John

 

[SUNRAY]

You could well be right. I was talking about sockets, and was being extremely conservative, estimating an average of something like 20 per household. However, particularly given that that ignores all commercial and industrial premises, I'm sure the total could easily be two or three times my very conservative estimate (and problably much more for plugs, since many/most of us probably have more things with plugs than we have sockets) - so your 1.4 billion (perhaps even a lot more, particularly for plugs) could easily be very credible.

I had written a bit more but must have edited it out: my count of 40 didnt include the items that a re not plugged in permanently, such as: hairdryer, lawnmowers, Henries, powertools - in my case >20, food processing kit, electric razor, lap tops, phone chargers etc etc. These will easily double the count of 40.
Then as you have also pointed out: the business world will at least double the count again, for that reason I had deliberately not counted in all of my amateur radio kit, my Public Address business etc and associated workshop etc, where extension leads alone account for something like 50-100. Additional to those are Shuko, 5A, 15A, 16A cables but not in this count

All told I think I'd expect the count to be 10B (9 zeros) 13A plugs with ease.

I haven't got a clue, but I would/could not argue with a suggestion of 1%. Mind you, as I'm suspect you might point out, even that would amount to 14 million if the BS1363s were 1.4 billion.

Kind Regards, John

I think this fiqure is reasonable
Assuming there are 20M houses and each house averages ¼ BS546 sockets, that's 5M. My estimation is based on a lot of new builds now incorporating them (2 in each reception room is becoming trendy due to the severe spot/down lighting fashion) and there are still old ones in use.
It was common practice in the 60's and 70's to use a 15A 546 as the means of isolation for immersion heaters and it wouldn't surprise me if this continued into the 80's by 'old timers' (My first house refurbed before moving in in 84 did) and dare I say 90's too? I can think of 2 properties where it remains today and a sheltered accomodation built late 80's only had these changed for a flex outlet plate less than 10 years ago when RCD's were fitted to the CU's, and I had a devil of a job persuading the contractors to let me have the removed items. (They are now in a small theatre where the orininal 5A sockets and plugs had been changed to 13A by the electricians during PIR and PAT).

 

[ericmark]

With a 13A socket I have a lead set for my meter so it is simple plug in press button and record reading, however with the less regular sockets, I don't have a lead set, the Hager Klik, the Lewden Maestro, and others all seem to be for mounting in a round conduit box, and I did try them as wall sockets, but they don't look right.

The 2 and 5 amp round pin are used around the world, very common in Hong Kong so you get loads of items fitted with the plugs, so it needs a 2 amp fuse for the 2 amp socket etc. and using them on lighting is returning to the days when you could buy BA22d plugs to put on the smoothing iron so the cable did not get in the way.

I personally want to be able to switch on standard lamps and table lamps as and when required, so simple cheap plug in (13A) remote controls are used a lot with my house, getting a 2 or 5 amp version would cost a lot of money, and the idea of having lights on the power sockets is also a safety thing so a fault on ceiling light does not take out the standard or table lamp.

Also there was a problem with people wiring plugs incorrectly, this has been reduced by the law requiring a plug to be ready fitted, so with 2 or 5 amp there is a problem as plug needs changing.

Even if you could buy Hager Klik, or Lewden Maestro sockets that fit a standard socket box, supplying them from the lighting supply you can't stop people fitting a lighting plug to a smoothing iron, the same applies to ceiling of course, but in the main ceiling is too high, on the end of a cord that's different. So instead of 2 and 5 amp why not

if going retro then may as well go the whole way.

 

[SUNRAY]

With a 13A socket I have a lead set for my meter so it is simple plug in press button and record reading, however with the less regular sockets, I don't have a lead set, the Hager Klik, the Lewden Maestro, and others all seem to be for mounting in a round conduit box, and I did try them as wall sockets, but they don't look right.

I work with a selection of genres so I have leads for 5A, 13A, 15A, 16A, Klik made up along with the same selection with R1+R2 shorting links.

The 2 and 5 amp round pin are used around the world, very common in Hong Kong so you get loads of items fitted with the plugs, so it needs a 2 amp fuse for the 2 amp socket etc. and using them on lighting is returning to the days when you could buy BA22d plugs to put on the smoothing iron so the cable did not get in the way.

That isn't why the BA22 plug was introduced

I personally want to be able to switch on standard lamps and table lamps as and when required, so simple cheap plug in (13A) remote controls are used a lot with my house, getting a 2 or 5 amp version would cost a lot of money, and the idea of having lights on the power sockets is also a safety thing so a fault on ceiling light does not take out the standard or table lamp.

In my experience, most domestic users are more than happy to have a switch or 2 extra by the door for this purpose.

Also there was a problem with people wiring plugs incorrectly, this has been reduced by the law requiring a plug to be ready fitted, so with 2 or 5 amp there is a problem as plug needs changing.

Is this really a problem? As I recall the average household had someone they could rely on to do that task. I know the skill has been lost to some extent since appliances come with fitted plugs but really?
Some of the lighting suppliers have been known to supply options of which type of plug on their products, but I haven't purchased such things for a while so can't quote current status.

Even if you could buy Hager Klik, or Lewden Maestro sockets that fit a standard socket box, supplying them from the lighting supply you can't stop people fitting a lighting plug to a smoothing iron, the same applies to ceiling of course, but in the main ceiling is too high, on the end of a cord that's different. So instead of 2 and 5 amp why not

if going retro then may as well go the whole way.

You are correct, we can not control idiots getting these things wrong and I have come across my share of them over the years but where exactly would you like to draw the line at trying to control them? Fitting a 5A socket on a 6A circuit where every other part of the system is fully rated is highly unlikely to cause a problem, as I mentioned in an earlier post they are very capable or running long term at significantly elevated currents and elsewhere in the world 546's have been rated at higher currents without modicication. India and SA rate our 15A at 16A for a start.
Let's get away from the feeling that 546's are retro / going back in time / bad old days etc. They have been in regular use since forever and never gone away, especially on lighting circuits.
Millions are in regular use across the UK on a daily basis.
And to add insult to injury I do one job every year where I still use a B22 plug for a power source.

 

[ericmark]

I see not problem with 2, 5, and 15 amp plugs as power outlets, and there is no reason why they should not be remotely switched. In my hall I have a 4 gang switch with 3 switches being supplied with the entrance floor lighting and one supplied with upstairs lighting supply, and in the same way there is no reason why a switch plate should not switch ceiling lights and sockets from independent supplies.

My parents house had one 15 amp socket on a radial that powered the immersion heater, since there is not fuse in the plug they run cool far better idea in an airing cupboard which in spite of name does not have much air movement.

I think the BA22d plug goes back to time with lighting electric and power electric were on separate meters with lighting electric being cheaper, it was at that time a criminal offence to use a lighting supply for power.

Splitters, often with one switched were common when I was a lad, be it an iron or a child's night light, and with rewireable fuses may be rated 2 amp but often far more is drawn.

When working in Hong Kong I bought many items with the 2, 5, and 15 amp plugs, and had extension leads which allowed me to use any in the 13 amp outlets,

these were common and had a BS number on them, not sure how as never seemed to be shuttered on the 3 pin outlet, however often the 2 pin outlets were shuttered. So I still have items not often used with 5 and 15 amp plugs on them.

The problem as I see it, is a 5 or 15 amp socket could be independent of lights, or supplied from lights and the user will not know which, with a lighting plug like the klik it is plain they are for lighting, same goes for a BA22d of course, but unless plainly marked lighting only 2, 5, and 15 amp could be lighting only or independent from lights.

Even after fitting a new consumer unit I had not worked out what all the 16 ways from the consumer unit fed, once I could switch them I did go around the house to work it all out, I was in the house 4 months before I realised the outside lights on the flat were switched from the main house hall and were on the mid level lighting circuit.

It was all well and good with previous houses, we moved in when new, so we were told what each switch did, this house when I moved in there were three FCU's just for central heating and circulation pump was on a 13A plug.

So my point is a 2, 5, or 15 amp socket are traditionally for power, and should not be used for lighting unless very plainly marked. I can find grid switches clearly engraved washer, fridge etc. But not 5 amp sockets. The old clock sockets were what I used, but now they cost a fortune, of course you can't stop idiots

but you can make it so they realise when the outlet is designed for some thing special. Likely that cable supplies speakers, but how do you know?

 

[JohnW2]

I think the BA22d plug goes back to time with lighting electric and power electric were on separate meters with lighting electric being cheaper, it was at that time a criminal offence to use a lighting supply for power.

That well well have been the reason in some cases, but in my grandparents' house the issue was far more basic - they only had one or two 'power sockets' (one in living room and maybe one in dining room) - so anywhere else (like bedrooms) one had no choice but to have things (often 'Christmas Trees' of things!) dangling from the ceiling!

Indeed, even in my parents' house, there were no sockets in the kitchen until after I went to uni!

Kind Regards, John

 

[ericmark]

I am told grand fathers house two 15 amp sockets one in hall and one on landing pre war wiring.
Dad told me his house 1954 had 8 sockets, one each bedroom, one on landing, one 15A in airing cupboard for immersion heater, one living room, one best room, one in kitchen, he was so proud to have so many.
Even 1970's not that many sockets fitted.

But until 1966 there was no earth on lights, so the BA22d plug could be seen as dangerous, even if there was an earth, the BA22d socket in the main had no connection to the pins.

However unlike commercial outlets where one would see labels like DB4R4 which most would understand as distribution box 4 red phase 4th MCB. With domestic premises it is rare to have anything to tell you where fed from.