AF447

[securespark]

Air France not guilty of manslaughter?

Who was responsible for training the pilots? Didn't they break rules?
Not getting enough rest prior to the flight, two pilots going for a rest break leaving more junior crew in charge.

Isn't AF responsible for the actions of their pilots?

Air France not guilty of manslaughter of 228 on jet which crashed into Atlantic

Five British nationals and three Irish doctors were among the 228 passengers killed after the doomed Flight 447, an Airbus 330 that was travelling from Rio de Janeiro to Paris, crashed into the Atlantic Ocean

www.mirror.co.uk

 

[denso13]

Air France not guilty of manslaughter?

"Unusually, even state prosecutors had argued for acquittal, saying that the proceedings did not produce enough proof of criminal wrongdoing by the companies.".

 

[securespark]

Yeah, I read that too.

But it doesn't make sense to me.

 

[Winglet]

The fact that there was a lack of authority and knowledge of what was going on in the cockpit is where the main issue is in my opinion. It was only in the final moments that they realised they were working against each other.

 

[diy_fun_uk]

Knew about an issue with sensors since 2002 if not before and, by 2009, they still hadn't been replaced. Nice of them. Maybe different with ground (or even water) based modes of transport that can grind to a halt in most scenarios, slightly different when dealing with something that flies tens of thousands of feet in the air.

 

[motorbiking]

AF were doing lots of touch and go practice at CDG on Wednesday. I initially thought they were just s**t at landing.

For there to be corporate manslaughter / gross negligence manslaughter in most legal regimes there needs to be:

Evidence that the risk was, or should have been, obvious to individuals within the organisation would be evidence which the jury could take into account in determining the whether there were gross failings. Evidence of reckless conduct, especially at senior management level, would be strong evidence of a gross breach.

what was the extent to which the evidence shows that there were attitudes, policies, systems or accepted practices within the organisation that were likely to have encouraged any such failure;

 

[Winglet]

The minute the first stall warning went off it would have made sense to put the aircraft nose down and get out of stall. By getting into lower altitude the pitots would have probably started functiong again and Autopilot would have sorted things out back to normal.

 

[Winglet]

When the first two stall warnings went off there were only the two co-pilots in the cockpit. Maybe if the captain had been at the controls at that moment then there would have been a different outcome. It was those dual inputs from the copilots that were cancelling each other out and causing the aircraft to repeadely keep stalling.

 

[Winglet]

Yeah I get that. Just wondering if the outcome had been different if the captain had been at the controls.

 

[motorbiking]

Sounds like Airbus, need to have a voice alert if the two inputs fully cancel each other out. I thought there was a button for this? Backed up by "Priority Left/right " voice alert.

 

[securespark]

Yes, the system should be foolproof.

It should be immediately obvious to both pilots when one is doing the opposite of the other.

It's a bit sheet that the plane's software can't recognise this sort of situation.

 

[motorbiking]

The plane's software is meant to avg out the inputs unless one pilot takes priority. Thats fine if one pilot, turns 10 degrees left and the other 15 degrees, but not so good when one is pushing down and the other pulling up.

 

[charliegolf]

All aircraft certified for flight in cloud have pitot heat fitted. Why didn't it work? Or was it off?

 

[Winglet]

Sounds like Airbus, need to have a voice alert if the two inputs fully cancel each other out. I thought there was a button for this? Backed up by "Priority Left/right " voice alert.

There is normally an audible warning of "Dual input".

Putting the aircraft aside, there should be a respected protocol of who is the PF (pilot flying) and who is the PM (pilot monitoring) and pilots should make it clear to each other who is doing what. There was a lot of confusion in the cockpit and no one was making it clear who was the PF.

 

[motorbiking]

When I am sailing I often let inexperienced people “drive” the boat. Sometimes their steering can be dangerous if they lose the feel of the wind and risk accidentally flipping the boom which on a larger boat will cause a lot of damage or injury.

A simple call of “my helm” lets me take control and explain the problem later without there being any blame or embarrassment. I tell them up front this may happen as things can be very dynamic.