Another shower upgrade query

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Current 8.5kw electric shower has expired. Like everyone, I would prefer if possible to be able to upgrade it.
I'll be honest, I've no idea what the current cabling is or fuse rating etc. What I do have is a picture, if anyone can decipher any info from it.
My question: assuming the current cabling is NOT suitable for a 10kw, what max can I put in? Can I put in a 9.5kw or even an 8.7kw? Or does it have to be a like for like, max 8.5kw?
Thanks
 

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The maximum load on a radial circuit is dependent, not just on the cable size, but other factors, like the fuse or circuit breaker rating and installation factors like the presence of insulation, grouping with other cables and length of the cable.

The commonest cable sizes used for electric showers are 4mm² (used on older shower circuits), 6mm² and 10mm². 4 and 6 can be distinguished by the fact that the earth wire is a single conductor. The 10mm² earth wire is stranded, IE has more than one conductor.
 
In theory, the fuse/MCB/RCBO size should have been selected to protect the cable, but it depends if the original installer followed the rules? I can't work out size from the picture, in the main I work out size by trying 6 mm², 10 mm², 16 mm² etc crimps on the cable and see which seems to fit, so will not fit blue and loose with yellow likely 4 mm² and tight with yellow 6 mm² in theory can use a micrometer or vernier but in practice not easy.

As to shower size, I have always said how instant showers are a bit use less, however I think a lot is down to the shower head, if matched to the shower then one gets a reasonable force, but if too big then seems to dribble out.

Looking at my last shower
1718612430058.png
it seems around 8.5 kW, and it is ample. The fact I have two instant showers and a 60 amp supply (13.8 kW) I am not keen on getting a larger one. One shower will take power from battery, so only importing 25 amps, but the inverter will only at best with a sunny day produce 6 kW, so one has to think what else will be used at the same time.

Last house we had an 18 kW instant shower, but gas powered, not electric, and to be frank having a shower in a shower cubical is so much better than standing in the bath, all in all this house is better.
 
Green earth sleeving. Suggests it's over 45 years old.

Hmmmm.

The cable could be 4mm2, as was common for showers back then.

You need to determine the cable size.

I would recommend buying a 1 metre length of 4mm2 T+E, and a 1 metre length of 6mm2 T+E, strip the ends, and closely compare.
 
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The upgrade is to get rid of the electric shower and fit a proper one.

You say that everytime, seemingly without exception. But while electric showers do suffer from a limited flow rate if you want your water at a decent temperature; for many they are a quite acceptable compromise, for example in my own home I have an electric shower in the small shower room the logic being that if I have an issue with my combi boiler, I still have a shower I can use. Other folk may have an electric shower if they don't want to have one that is restricted by heating a tank of water up if they have a conventional traditional DHW setup, granted both reasons work better if the electric shower is a secondary shower and not a main one, but they could also apply in the case of someone who has only one shower in the house, perhaps if they see the idea of a shower as secondary to bath (At 6'4" with sometimes stiff knees its not a view I personally keep, but quite a lot of folk might - especially if the shower is just fitted over the end of the bath)
 
You say that everytime, seemingly without exception.
Correct

for many they are a quite acceptable compromise,
but not for the OP as they specifically asked about an upgrade.
Adding a couple of kW will make very little difference.
All electric showers are a feeble trickle compared to those from a combi boiler or stored hot water system, and always will be.
 
You say that everytime, seemingly without exception.
Indeed he does. Although there are many very positive things to be said about him (in terms of his knowledge, skill and communications abilities etc.), as I often point out to him, he is prone (in many contexts) to making strong and unqualified 'blanket' assertions, which many probably regard as 'absolute truths', which are in fact only reflections of his personal views or interpretations.
But while electric showers do suffer from a limited flow rate if you want your water at a decent temperature; for many they are a quite acceptable compromise, for example in my own home I have an electric shower in the small shower room the logic being that if I have an issue with my combi boiler, I still have a shower I can use. ...
Quite so. There must be millions of electric showers in service and a high proportion of users are probably 'happy' with them. In some cases that might be because 'they don't know (have never experienced) any better', but in many cases it is presumably because they are genuinely perfectly satisfied with its performance, even if flameport wouldn't be, and also even though a shower which utilised water heated by some method other than 'instantaneous electric') would, in objective terms, have 'superior performance'.

Bizarre though I find it, I have a fairly extreme family anecdote to illustrate this. In a dusty corner of our house, we have an 8.5 kW electric shower which is very rarely used (only when we have 'a house full of visitors', usually at Christmas!). A good few moons ago, my late father-in-law experienced that shower and, because he was so 'impressed with it' (and despite my attempts at contrary advice!) had the 'proper' shower (gas-heated water) in his retirement home ripped out and replaced with an electric one - and, again, was apparently 'impressed by the change'!!

... so it does seem to be a matter of 'horses for courses'. I never really manage to find out why he preferred the electric shower over the 'proper' one - but he's at least one person who definitely did not have a problem with a (fairly low-powered) electric one, even when they have experienced the (objectively) 'superior alternative'.!
 
The upgrade is to get rid of the electric shower and fit a proper one.

How is hot water supplied to other outlets?
What proper one is there?

I've demonstrated a couple of times the difference between an electric shower and a combi in terms of energy cost is negligable and electric is quicker to get to temperature and therefore uses less water.
 
Bizarre though I find it, I have a fairly extreme family anecdote to illustrate this. In a dusty corner of our house, we have an 8.5 kW electric shower which is very rarely used (only when we have 'a house full of visitors', usually at Christmas!). A good few moons ago, my late father-in-law experienced that shower and, because he was so 'impressed with it' (and despite my attempts at contrary advice!) had the 'proper' shower (gas-heated water) in his retirement home ripped out and replaced with an electric one - and, again, was apparently 'impressed by the change'!!
I have every empathy with that.
Whenever I stay in a UK chain Hotel - Premier Inn for example - and spent 5 minutes trying to control the temperature and reduce the uncomfortable pressure of the dustbin lid sized 'superior shower' that everyone seems to refer to I can't wait to get back home for a decent and quick shower. I often hear others in such places saying how wonderful the shower is...
... so it does seem to be a matter of 'horses for courses'.
 
I will freely admit having a power shower is far better than an instant shower. But having fitted one, it is not an easy option. With gravity giving the pressure to the water, it is simply not enough with most homes, so it needs a pump, (power shower) but first consideration is can it draw water away from any immersion heater? So the tapping into the water system has to be high enough so it can't drain the tank with the immersion in.

In the main, this means all new pipe work to the power shower, this is rather expensive, remember cold as well as hot, as want both at same pressure. The next problem is having enough hot water to run the shower, my immersion only goes down 9" into the cistern, enough for handwashing, not enough for a shower, so the immersion heater will likely need changing.

If you have a mains pressure cistern, it needs testing every year, so not a good idea, you can get cisterns where the heat exchanger pipe is mains pressure, but cistern gravity fed, this is far more contact area to a standard hot coil, so it often means new cistern.

So looking at a shower downstairs, where there is enough pressure, or a power shower, or new cistern, however it is done, looking at a lot of money, as to using a direct gas boiler, yes had this in last house, but not without problems, although the boiler can modulate, it was limited as to how much, so one needed a large shower rose to ensure enough hot water flows in the summer months so boiler does not cut out.

As to a combi boiler even more problems, the Bosch on in parent's house had two options, eco off or on. With the eco off, the shower worked OK, but with eco on, the shower would start cold, get hot, then go cold again, then finally hot again. But, with eco off using all other taps they had to be full on, or the boiler would not fire up.

As to cost, any hot water in the pipes is wasted heat, and boilers are not 100% efficient, so there is no direct comparison, so if one has to wait 3 minutes for water to get hot, cold and hot again, that is 3 minutes of wasted heat. I am sure it would be cheaper for the females, but I will go for a quick shower, likely 7 minutes, so an instant gas shower, likely uses 30% more water or more since a bigger shower head, very likely more, so cost wise gas is not as cheap as one first thinks.

I will admit the power shower installed in mother's wet room was the best shower I have ever had, however the installation was far from easy or cheap. And when the boiler was changed, it had to be ripped out again, as all water direct from mains, so illegal to use a power shower direct from mains.

In view of that,
The upgrade is to get rid of the electric shower and fit a proper one.

How is hot water supplied to other outlets?
is rather a blinkered approch, I would say consider a thermostatic shower control from the domestic hot water, as in the main that is better, but one needs to weigh up the pros and cons. I was rather supprised with this house how good the instent electric shower is, I would say the important thing is the shower head is matched to the shower output. With the power shower and instent gas, the shower head was fixed, it could be removed for washing down wet room, but it had that much force, hand held while showing water would go everywhere, but with electric instant the power is a lot less, so no problem removing head to wash under arms, if one drops it, it falls to lenght of hose and you can pick it up again, the power shower if dropped would fly everywhere, like a demented snake. Hense not removed for showing.

OK, from the stored water supply you can have something like this,
1718699426341.png
one good reason for not having a combi boiler, but one must consider the cost to install it. And she looks high maintenance to me. Clearly in a wet room, and most have a shower in the bath. But we have no idea if @RrogerD has a domestic hot water tank, a combi boiler, or even if they have gas or oil, and more important to question size of cable to shower, or even size of supply to home, so really not much more can be said.
 
The maximum load on a radial circuit is dependent, not just on the cable size, but other factors, like the fuse or circuit breaker rating and installation factors like the presence of insulation, grouping with other cables and length of the cable.

The commonest cable sizes used for electric showers are 4mm² (used on older shower circuits), 6mm² and 10mm². 4 and 6 can be distinguished by the fact that the earth wire is a single conductor. The 10mm² earth wire is stranded, IE has more than one conductor.
4 square is hardly a common size for a shower. In fact I would suggest that it's vanishingly rare to come across.
 
6KW when first became polpula were not good, 7.2KW was an improvent, 8.4 was about best for many, higher power not always successfull in my limited opinion,
So I always advised, gas if you have a boiler that would do it or if not the say 8.2 to 8.4KW electric, or both if you wanted, seemed to please most folks.

I visited a campsite in Spain the had a mound of earth (say a very small hill) and a coil of hosepipe stuff set at 45 degrees from horizontal, feeding a shower block, I took a shower in it and seemed OK in that one instance on a hot day
 
4 square is hardly a common size for a shower. In fact I would suggest that it's vanishingly rare to come across.
As has been said, I don't think it was all that uncommon in the early days of (low-powered) electric showers.
 
4 square is hardly a common size for a shower. In fact I would suggest that it's vanishingly rare to come across.
It was very common in the days of the first electric showers, which were often sub 7kW. I have seen loads of shower circuits run in 4 Milli and installed by Norweb (as was then).
Many were Dolphin Showers, installed in the 70s. Sometimes they had a Dolphin shower enclosure ( you had to have a bob or two), or more often installed over the bath.
 

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