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david and julie
joe-90 said:
No the landlord isn't being racist, any landlord can refuse to serve anybody and they don't have to give a reason, if they don't want to.
If the landlord said I am not serving you because you are a black illegal immigrant, it would be racist. If he said I am not serving you because you are an illegal immigrant it is not racist.
The problem with this scenario is that it presumes the Ethiopian is black, which is not necessarily the case.
Apologies in advance for answering this in the cut and paste style (which I dislike), but I have a few different answers.....
Apologies - I haven't been following that closely, to be honest, and just dived in on this question.
I agree. One point I would raise though is that there seems to be confusion in this, and similar, threads with regards the status of legal migrants, illegal immigrants, bogus asylum seekers, refugees and genuine asylum seekers, all of which are different (well maybe not the last two, not quite sure). Your Ethiopian is perfectly entitled to go down the legal migrant process. He is also entitled to seek asylum if he is being persecuted in Ethiopia. Trying to sneak in whilst clinging to the bottom of a Eurostar is illegal though, which is why he gets sent back. We are also starting to confuse nationality and race as well. We are, for example, exactly the same race as the French.
With respect, I still fail to see how you see these as equivalent. The UK is a country, but think of it as a club, as all countries are. It has its rules, it has its entry requirements. We are, as you say, overcrowded in some places and perfectly entitled to set those rules and entry requirements with that in mind. As long as they are applied fairly, there can be no argument, and the inability of your Ethiopian, or even a Switzerlander (?), to just turn up and set up home is nothing to do with race, but nationality, and the relationship between the two country's governments, or in this case, menbeship of the EU.
A public house, is meant to be exactly that. You can get banned on an individual basis, but you I couldn't be excluded because the landlord has an irrational dislike of fat men with beards. Same applies to a blanket dislike of Ethiopians.
I understand the point you are trying to make, but this Ethiopian / Pole / Passport Control / Pub analogy just doesn't work. UK immigration policy is nothing to do with race, it is about nationality.
I've skimmed the rest of the thread a bit, and think that the point when it turned from a debate about why there weren't many Asian footballers, into a debate about the fairness of banning Africans from pubs was around the time when someone queried whether jokes about corner shops were racist or not. I've had a bit of a think and have a theory, though, to be honest, still need to convince myself a bit.
I may be wrong, but a lot of whether it is racist or not is to do with the intent of the person telling the joke, and the effect it has on the subject. Obviously someone standing up on stage going 'I hate all blacks, bloody towleheads, they're all suicide bombers' is doing it out of ignorance tinged with contempt and/or hatred, and the words are always intended to be hurtful. With a bit of imagination, jokes about corner shops could cross over into the realm of harmless joshing (though I would have to ask an Indian to know for sure whether it was genuinely hurtful or not). This would put them in the same league as Englishmen, Irishmen, Scotsmen, Essex Girl, Scouser, Traffic Warden jokes - In other words, they mark an acceptance, yet acknowledgement of differences. I'm sure Asians are able to take a joke and don't need mollycoddling, so I'm not entirely sure whether the corner shop jokes are something to worry about or not.
Even as I write that, I'm still not convinced, but its one more thought for a slightly drunken evening.......
joe-90 said:
Apologies - I haven't been following that closely, to be honest, and just dived in on this question.
joe-90 said:
I agree. One point I would raise though is that there seems to be confusion in this, and similar, threads with regards the status of legal migrants, illegal immigrants, bogus asylum seekers, refugees and genuine asylum seekers, all of which are different (well maybe not the last two, not quite sure). Your Ethiopian is perfectly entitled to go down the legal migrant process. He is also entitled to seek asylum if he is being persecuted in Ethiopia. Trying to sneak in whilst clinging to the bottom of a Eurostar is illegal though, which is why he gets sent back. We are also starting to confuse nationality and race as well. We are, for example, exactly the same race as the French.
joe-90 said:
With respect, I still fail to see how you see these as equivalent. The UK is a country, but think of it as a club, as all countries are. It has its rules, it has its entry requirements. We are, as you say, overcrowded in some places and perfectly entitled to set those rules and entry requirements with that in mind. As long as they are applied fairly, there can be no argument, and the inability of your Ethiopian, or even a Switzerlander (?), to just turn up and set up home is nothing to do with race, but nationality, and the relationship between the two country's governments, or in this case, menbeship of the EU.
A public house, is meant to be exactly that. You can get banned on an individual basis, but you I couldn't be excluded because the landlord has an irrational dislike of fat men with beards. Same applies to a blanket dislike of Ethiopians.
I understand the point you are trying to make, but this Ethiopian / Pole / Passport Control / Pub analogy just doesn't work. UK immigration policy is nothing to do with race, it is about nationality.
I've skimmed the rest of the thread a bit, and think that the point when it turned from a debate about why there weren't many Asian footballers, into a debate about the fairness of banning Africans from pubs was around the time when someone queried whether jokes about corner shops were racist or not. I've had a bit of a think and have a theory, though, to be honest, still need to convince myself a bit.
I may be wrong, but a lot of whether it is racist or not is to do with the intent of the person telling the joke, and the effect it has on the subject. Obviously someone standing up on stage going 'I hate all blacks, bloody towleheads, they're all suicide bombers' is doing it out of ignorance tinged with contempt and/or hatred, and the words are always intended to be hurtful. With a bit of imagination, jokes about corner shops could cross over into the realm of harmless joshing (though I would have to ask an Indian to know for sure whether it was genuinely hurtful or not). This would put them in the same league as Englishmen, Irishmen, Scotsmen, Essex Girl, Scouser, Traffic Warden jokes - In other words, they mark an acceptance, yet acknowledgement of differences. I'm sure Asians are able to take a joke and don't need mollycoddling, so I'm not entirely sure whether the corner shop jokes are something to worry about or not.
Even as I write that, I'm still not convinced, but its one more thought for a slightly drunken evening.......
Actually, I've thought about that last point a bit more. If someone told a joke about me on the line of ......
He's a Brit, bet he likes a nice cup of tea once in a while
as opposed to ......
He's a Brit, wouldn't surprise me if he he's a paedophile sex tourist, they're all at it you know
then, though both are related to my nationality, one is done with affection and the other with a degree of ill-informed venom. What I was saying is that the corner shop joke could be considered category a rather than category b. Still need to ask an Indian to be sure though.
He's a Brit, bet he likes a nice cup of tea once in a while
as opposed to ......
He's a Brit, wouldn't surprise me if he he's a paedophile sex tourist, they're all at it you know
then, though both are related to my nationality, one is done with affection and the other with a degree of ill-informed venom. What I was saying is that the corner shop joke could be considered category a rather than category b. Still need to ask an Indian to be sure though.
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johnny_t said:
So is it racist to criticise black youths for the amount of crime they commit? Or is it just telling it the way it is?
And on the Club UK issue. If I, as a memeber of the UK club, voice an opinion that I don't want a particular racial group to join the club because they have a high incidence of AIDS, is that racist - or a legitimate opinion of a club member over a serious health issue?
joe
joe
Since this subject is open to anyone, I want to put my opinion foward even though i'm new to this site!
Re: the original subject of the thread - I think that as time passes, we will see more and more asian professional footballers as the sport's following increases in other parts of the world
I personally dislike racism and think BAS did very well banging his head against an ignorant brick wall for so long! Joe-90 will no doubt label me another 'limp wristed liberal' or whatever but that's fair enough - I think he is an obnoxious moron!
Re: the original subject of the thread - I think that as time passes, we will see more and more asian professional footballers as the sport's following increases in other parts of the world
I personally dislike racism and think BAS did very well banging his head against an ignorant brick wall for so long! Joe-90 will no doubt label me another 'limp wristed liberal' or whatever but that's fair enough - I think he is an obnoxious moron!
I'm certainly opionated - your other words imply hypocrisy - where am I being hypocritical?
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Igorian
PompeySparks said:
Welcome to the club.
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