Atmos or Intergas

[Brightonguy]

Yes. It's a shame that the op doesn't know the difference between a combi boiler and an unvented cylinder .

Some appliances are cleared for things some aren't.

Unvented cylinder? Are you on about the Atmos boiler with the unvented cylinder and boiler combined? The cylinder and boiler discharge empty into the same pipe, using a HepVo trap.....and...the boiler pressure relief valve on an ATAG clearly empties into a HepVo trap. Have a look. Do not take my word for it.

Where is this list of appliances that are cleared? Dan, give us it. If there is such a list. Or are you going to duck this one as well. Dan. I can see when someone is dragging their feet.

 

[Dan Robinson]

Yes. The Atmos boiler that has an unvented cylinder in it.

One that I have owned. One that I have been/am a service Partner for with Atmos.

I am under no obligation to you to answer any questions and considering the likelihood of you doing illegal work I am limiting my answers. There is a certain element of being neither bothered, or a7sed. Which extends to your opinion of my skills.

Unless of course, you are another regular poster on here arguing the toss under this second identity.

Wouldn't be the first time.

The Multi had a special dispensation during its UK distribution period allowing it to combine the D2 safety discharge and the condensate and the PRV from the primary side. You can try and be a clever dick all you like but it doesn't work. Sorry. TPV discharges and expansion relief discharges are not the same as boiler PRV's; and come under different building regulations.

I never professed to be an expert. Merely someone who knows more about these products than you by way of years of experience with them. Feel free to contact Atmos and ask them. I am sure Len, Wim or Andy would be happy to discuss my ability to advise people on the installation of their products.

There is no single list of appliances so you can't have one. It is down to the individual manufacturers to declare the product safe for a certain method of whatever based on their own design, testing and the application of the relevant BS document.

You are wrong on several points, but you refuse to acknowledge this, and insist on coming up with silly ideas & questions thinking you are some for of genius; is just too tedious to go through it all. Pendantism is boring you know? Oh, and accusing Kim of not being a thinker was hilarious. If you knew Kim at all then you would feel incredibly foolish in saying that.

Telling me to look at a pipe configuration of a boiler I have fitted many times is thoroughly pointless also. I know full well where and how the PRV and condensate of the Atag terminate. The presence of a HepvO trap is not mandatory - only that in my photo, that particular installation terminated into a soil stack on the other side of the wall and I had one one the van. In other instances I have used washing machine standpipes with the Atag.

Worcester Bosch for example have different rules entirely for the PRV termination.


I have tried to be patient with you; but your persistent obfuscation/mixing of terminologies and insistence that you are onto something new and clever is getting boring. Not to mentioned continual googleering and pasting.

My delay in responding has nothing to do with dragging my feet, and more to do with having more important things to occupy my time.



Now wind your neck in and tell us what your other identity on this forum is.

Asking the installer how the headers work means he contacts the Intergas company and askes them how they do it. Domestic plumbers and low loss headers? Most have never heard of them. I would not trust one to design such a system. Many multiple headers tend to be like this for two zones. The boilers F & R are to the left.

A very odd choice of wording if you ask me and probably denotes and adenoid problem. I wish i could remember the poster here that writes in the same manner. But that level of arrogance that as an installer would send me for the hills. Intergas would not be the first place I rang for advice on low loss headers.


I see, by the way, you have just done a massive edit to your previous post. Which I really can't be bothered to read, and as I have to be in Greenwich first thing I am going to head off for a shower.



Oh and your picture of those two Intergas'? You might want to email the owner and tell them they need a bigger EV.

 

[Brightonguy]

"I am under no obligation to you to answer any questions and considering the likelihood of you doing illegal work"

Sound like you do not know Dan.

Dan, it is the first time I have ever been on this forum. A strange bunch eh? If they can't understand a thread or it is not to their liking they want it locked. How odd.

ATAG do have their boiler pressure relief into a plastic pipe and into a HepVo trap if you such a trap. I have looked into their documents and on the web and can't find any dispensation for it. At one time an unvented cylinder could not be discharged into a HepVo trap. They can now..and so can boilers it appears. I saw nothing in the Intergas manual that say the boiler discharge pipe must be copper or anything for that matter.

What am I wrong on Dan? Kim must be a thinker Dan, with such wisdom.

Dan, an answer for you. Have a low loss header and two Willo Smart pumps off it for the two CH zones. To prevent the boiler short circuiting and raising the return temperature of the boiler reducing condensing efficiency, have a thermostat in the end of the header on the return to the boiler. If the boiler is set to say 65C max flow temperature then the boiler flow and return differential is say 15 to 20C, then say set the header stat to 50C. If the return gets over 50C, creeping above condensing temperatures, the boiler cuts out. The CH loops drain the header of heat and the boiler cuts back in again. This stat would only cut in when the rad valves start to close off. The boiler would have also modulated the burner down low by this time and pretty soon the CH zones may be all closed off by the rad valves and the flow switches switch out the boiler. But in the Intergas case the header thermostat can be eliminated if the weather compensation is used and it is set to a max of 65C boiler temperature. Then the cases of very return temperatures (a full by-pass from the boiler's flow to return is slim) reducing boiler efficiency is greatly reduced. If a boiler does not have weather compensation, then a thermostat on he header is essential with a condensing boiler.

Dan, I figured all this out with the existing knowledge I have of heating systems and in the past few days reading manuals and Googling. Simple stuff once you get into it. A pity many of the resident plumbers couldn't understand it though.

I agree the Intergas' may need a bigger EV. But it may be supplemental to the EVs behind the boilers if they are fitted.

But I like the Intergas boiler though.

 

[doitall]

Dan and ecowarrier are without doubt the most knowledgeable intergas/atmos installers you'll find anywhere.

 

[Brightonguy]

They are? I am underwhelmed by the pair of them, although Dan does try. There is not that much to these boilers and they have a rock solid heat exchanger. That is the attraction. The Intergas manual is contradictory and it mentions nothing about the pressure relief discharge pipe.

 

[doitall]

The PRV is a safety device and not covered by the boiler manufactures regs, so other than saying it should discharge safely thats good enough.

The regs will say that in the event it does discharge it should be visible.

Are you DIYing the boiler or is your RGI involved.

Oh, and the boilers in the pic you posted yesterday is piped up wrong or should we say not ideal.

 

[Brightonguy]

The PRV is a safety device and not covered by the boiler manufactures regs, so other than saying it should discharge safely thats good enough.

The regs will say that in the event it does discharge it should be visible.

Are you DIYing the boiler or is your RGI involved.

Oh, and the boilers in the pic you posted yesterday is piped up wrong or should we say not ideal.

I will not be doing the fitting. I specify. Leave it to the installers of any trade and a slap-dash job will result. They take the easy way out or the way they are familiar with, or get the biggest cut.

The Intergas can have a tundish and HepVo trap then. One heating guy I was talking to said that this arrangement can be done on all domestic boilers and unvented cylinders. It saves drilling walls. I do not want anything on the external walls that does not need to be there. I detest external cables and pipes. Indeed Atmos and Atag clearly fit HepVo traps and I am sure others do as well, so this must apply to all as a boiler discharging water at around boiling point or above, at 3 bar is the same for them all. The problem with many guys is that many are not up to date with regs or new products and do things they way they have always done them and buy the product they have always bought. I will do the research and thinking for them and just demand their craft skills.

The Intergas boilers I posted pics of, I did alert Dan that the two boilers tee into each other then into the header using only 22mm pipe. After the tee 28mm would be better into the header. Both have their own pumps which may interfere with each other. Having them both have their flow and returns into the header is the ideal way as they do not influence each other. The header divides and rules. It allows each boiler to operate independently and without influence of other boilers and CH zones and allows CH zones to act independently and without influence of boilers or other CH zones. Each boiler and CH zone can be setup independently. Use them properly and a nice balanced system emerges without much effort. However using headers in domestic condensing boilers care must be taken to avoid the return to the boiler getting too hot reducing efficiency.

 

[doitall]

HepV° will withstand boiling water for a limited time, they are not suitable for super heated steam from an unvented cylinder.

They are wrong but not for the reason you mention and I don't intend to add fuel to your fire.

 

[Brightonguy]

HepV° will withstand boiling water for a limited time, they are not suitable for super heated steam from an unvented cylinder.

They are wrong but not for the reason you mention and I don't intend to add fuel to your fire.

Hepworth say that high temperature plastic pipe must be used. That is the white waste pipe that is not solvent welded.

example: An unvented hot water storage system. In Figure 7, the HepvO® valve is used in conjunction with a combined temperature and pressure relief valve. The hot water is discharged through the HepvO® valve. In this application, the discharge pipe should only be of either polypropylene to BS EN 1451 Part 1 or copper.

Hepworth show their trap connected to a "domestic" unvented cylinder.

Maybe Hepworth are wrong and our resident thought policeman is right Many unvented cylinders are now fitted with HepVo traps.

 

[Steelmasons]

With a two zone setup using Wilo Smart pumps I was thinking of making up the header using 28mm pipe, which is simple to do. But each zone will have its own 22mm flow and return tee into the 28mm header. The two end tees on the header will be the flow and return to the boiler and inside these two tees, the tee for the flow and return of the two zones. Keeping the tees as close to each other as possible. This will mean the two CH zones will each access the neutral point of the header and not influence each other in operation as the Smart pumps run up and down in speed.

"neutral point of header" you say? , I suggest you size the 'header' for correct velocity before approaching your 'installer' with specifications that will obviously have to be amended.

You are obviously struggling with regard to correct system design so I suggest you leave it to the experts.

Please use the correct terminology ie: "closely spaced tees" , "distribution headers" , "LLH" etc etc.

 

[doitall]

Maybe Hepworth are wrong and our resident thought policeman is right Many unvented cylinders are now fitted with HepVo traps.

Suggest you ask hepworth what temperature they will withstand over a prolonged period.

Ask what happens when the immersion goes tits up and you have super heated steam blasting into the trap.

 

[Brightonguy]

Maybe Hepworth are wrong and our resident thought policeman is right Many unvented cylinders are now fitted with HepVo traps.

Suggest you ask hepworth what temperature they will withstand over a prolonged period.

Ask what happens when the immersion goes **** up and you have super heated steam blasting into the trap.

Super heated steam? The safety valves, pressure and temperature, are supposed to activate before that situation arises.

The fact is these traps are used on domestic unvented cylinders and boilers. Hepworth give all the info of how they are fitted and even sell a tundish adapter kit, which is shown in the picture.

 

[Brightonguy]

With a two zone setup using Wilo Smart pumps I was thinking of making up the header using 28mm pipe, which is simple to do. But each zone will have its own 22mm flow and return tee into the 28mm header. The two end tees on the header will be the flow and return to the boiler and inside these two tees, the tee for the flow and return of the two zones. Keeping the tees as close to each other as possible. This will mean the two CH zones will each access the neutral point of the header and not influence each other in operation as the Smart pumps run up and down in speed.

"neutral point of header" you say? , I suggest you size the 'header' for correct velocity before approaching your 'installer' with specifications that will obviously have to be amended.

You are obviously struggling with regard to correct system design so I suggest you leave it to the experts.

Please use the correct terminology ie: "closely spaced tees" , "distribution headers" , "LLH" etc etc.

I do not consider domestic plumbers experts, as this is more commercial thinking. This sort of thing is beyond them. I am not struggling with correct system design as I have nailed it down. An Intergas, a distribution header (or two), two Wilo Smart pumps with flow switches, two cheap single channel time clocks and thermo rad valves on all rads (the prime aim along with two CH zones). There are off the shelf headers available, I posted a picture of one. If assembling a distribution header yourself. It is just a matter of whether it is 28mm or the next size up. In domestic situations with a house not that large, 28mm was the size used that I saw.

Using 28mm, as 35mm pipe horrendously expensive, two 28mm distribution identical sized headers can be used. One for each CH zone. The boiler's flow and return pipes tee into each header, making sure the length of the flow and return pipes to each header from the boiler the same length. Sorted and cheap too.

Yes, the distribution header, I will not use acronyms, is a neutral point. Think of it like a street with traffic moving up and down it not interfering with each other.

 

[Steelmasons]

Yes, the distribution header, I will not use acronyms, is a neutral point. Think of it like a street with traffic moving up and down it not interfering with each other.

So tell me , to what velocity has the 28mm 'header' been speced for? (i'm going to guess that you will skip this question).

A 'correctly' designed 'header' will enable load/distribution pipework to be 'de -coupled' , your 28mm 'header' will do no such thing , maybe you are getting confused with regard to 'closely spaced tees'? , which again need to be correctly installed in order to create hydraulic separation.

You clearly haven't a clue with regard to correct system design so I suggest you leave it to those that do , ie: a heating engineer!

 

[Brightonguy]

Using 28mm, as 35mm pipe horrendously expensive.

I just looked at the BES site. 35mm is not that badly priced. As belt and braces it may be worth just doing the distribution header in 35mm.