Battery Testing a mobility scooter -interpreting readings.

[ericmark]

Now, buying the batteries already fitted inside a box that attaches to a scooter's unique docking system: that would be exempt. Sending your battery box to them to swap batteries: exempt.

So a trip to Abergele then with the cases, which is what I did. The postal restrictions resulted in cheaper to collect them from mid wales to getting them delivered. Some where near where it says Bull across the traffic lights to old place.

 

[Harry Bloomfield]

We've bought lots of aids with VAT exempt status... Including stairlift and maintenance contract for the same. The batteries inside are used in alarm panels... so not exempt if sold direct to me (but are if via the stairlift people when servicing).

I'd argue that a BP monitor is not unique to disabled and is used by many in good health so did not qualify anyway - just like examples of reclining chairs on that link are not.

I can only state what I found. The stairlift batteries arrived with a large sticker on them, something about 'for mobility use only'.

Order date:10 Sep, 2023

 

[Harry Bloomfield]

No way to reclaim VAT as a member of the public from HMRC as far as I know: either supplier zero rates the sale or charges 20%. Section 2.2. of https://www.gov.uk/guidance/reliefs-from-vat-for-disabled-and-older-people-notice-7017

Yep, I remember completing that form, for Tanya, when they supplied the batteries.

 

[dishman]

Also a 35 Ah battery is heavy placed low down, it gives the scooter some stability, the lithium are a lot lighter.

That is something I vaguely mused on, but didn't think too much about. But it is a very good point.

Based on elimination by size (maximum capacity for the box) I get these option.





Obviously I would need 2 for the singles.
The Avon is an interesting one with it being GEL based, 42ah and a 2 year warrantee.

While that kind of capacity might be overkill, I think having that extra capacity is a nice redundancy.

Thoughts on these options?

 

[JohnW2]

I did just ring Tanya actually. They said that they no longer apply the discount at purchase. It has to be reclaimed by me via HMRC ...

That seems top contradict what the HMRC say in the link that was posted above. However, that link was apparently l;ast updated in 2Jan 2019 - are you suggesting that the situations has changed since then, but that the HMRC have not updated what their website says? The linked materialsays ...

If you think that you meet all the conditions for VAT-free goods but have been incorrectly charged VAT you should ask your supplier for a refund. There’s no facility for HMRC to refund VAT to you.

 

[dishman]

That seems top contradict what the HMRC say in the link that was posted above. However, that link was apparently l;ast updated in 2Jan 2019 - are you suggesting that the situations has changed since then, but that the HMRC have not updated what their website says? The linked materialsays ...

No idea....maybe I just got an ill-informed customer service rep.

I rang specifically to find out how the VAT removal was applied, and assumed I would have to make a purchase over the phone. But, that was the response I was given.

I'll clearly have to ring again and ask for a manager or something.

 

[JohnW2]

No idea....maybe I just got an ill-informed customer service rep. I rang specifically to find out how the VAT removal was applied, and assumed I would have to make a purchase over the phone. But, that was the response I was given.

It sounds a bit like that.

I'll clearly have to ring again and ask for a manager or something.

It sounds as if you probably need to.

If the information currently on the HMRC website is correct, the only way one can avoid paying VAT is by completing one of the declaration forms and giving it to the supplier, in which case the supplier does not charge VAT in the first place - since it appears that once VAT has been charged and paid, there is no way of getting a refund.

 

[Harry Bloomfield]

If the information currently on the HMRC website is correct, the only way one can avoid paying VAT is by completing one of the declaration forms and giving it to the supplier, in which case the supplier does not charge VAT in the first place - since it appears that once VAT has been charged and paid, there is no way of getting a refund.

A bit of a vague memory, but thinking back to the purchase of the BP monitor, from Argos - After purchase, you could complete the form, which included a reference to your purchase from them, submit it, then Argos would refund you the VAT.

 

[JohnW2]

A bit of a vague memory, but thinking back to the purchase of the BP monitor, from Argos - After purchase, you could complete the form, which included a reference to your purchase from them, submit it, then Argos would refund you the VAT.

If the form was completed and provided to the supplier before they submitted their next VAT Return, I suppose they could 'reverse history', by re-issue an invoice without VAT and destroying all traces of the original VAT Invoice. They would then be in a position of having taken too much money from you (in terms of the new invoice, and therefore could legitimately give you a refund.

In practice, I suppose that they could probably do similar even if they had already produced a VAT Return, reducing the input VAT declared on their next Return accordingly. However, although it is exceedingly unlikely that it would be noticed, that would strictly be incorrect, since their declared input VAT for both of the periods would be slightly 'wrong' ()even though 'the overall effect' would be correct.

 

[Rodders53]

Thoughts on these options?

Yuasa all day long for me.

https://www.avonbattery.co.uk/ mainly sold by https://www.bblbatteries.co.uk/ are simply an unknown entity. MK brand were the ones installed in the first Pride GoGo charger (I'd avoid due to that).

NB That size Yuasa is sold on RS Components so is obviously not designed solely for Disabled Mobility Scooter use, and nor would any other same size battery be. So it will not be VAT exempt under HMRC rules. (Unless supplied and fitted by a mobility place, who would pay vat on purchase and reclaim that in their VAT return; but bill you at zero rate vat for replacing the batteries.)

 

[ericmark]

I thought the question was how to test a battery? I think we can assume lead acid, and in a scooter likely AGM, so only way is to read voltage. Either as it stands, or during a discharge or the recovery after a discharge.

The discharge methods depend on the load given, so no real set of voltages to fit all. A battery on a 'smart' charger will in the main be charged when it drops below 12.8 and stops charging at 14.4 volt, so for a 12 volt battery 12.8 volt is when off charger fully charged, although we would expect it to be below that, at 7.4 volt my charger will not charge it, it sees it as a 6 volt battery.
So a chart will likely show 12.50 as 80%, 12.30 as 70%, 12.15 as 60%, 12.05 as 50%, and it continues to 10.50 volts at 0% however the volts do depend on load, condition of battery, and temperature, a car battery under 12 volt no load one can expect it not to start, but a scooter battery (traction AGM) it will likely drive the scooter until down to around 11.5 volt. The gel battery will fail at a slightly higher voltage, and the lithium battery will be damaged if cells go further than a set voltage so they need a battery management system to both stop over discharge and over charge.

My mobility scooter has a suppressed zero voltmeter, I would guess it reads 18 - 30 volt, not tested it, and you will see the volts vary due to load/incline being attempted, I am unaware of any under voltage cut off. It may be OK with an e-bike, but with a mobility scooter one should not be using it unless disabled, and if you are crawling back at 1 MPH is better than being left stranded.

I have found disablement shops where you can buy batteries zero VAT are so much more expensive to a battery retailer that it is still better to buy from a battery retailer. £98.99 for 34 AH Ableworld and £72.19 Tanya both the Lucas so can compare. (£65.44 - £149.56) depending on make.

The big problem is getting the battery, clearly you can't sign a declaration that it is being used for a disabled person if distance buying. If last year I wanted to use the mobility scooter due to being lazy and I don't want to walk, one not permitted except for testing, and two I could not claim VAT exemption, now with a disablement parking plaque I can show I am using the scooter for my disablement, I was disabled last year, and classed as 20% disabled, but that is because of damage to my hand, not my legs. But to get zero VAT I need to sign to say I am disabled, it is not up to Ableworld or anyone else to assess me, so if not being used for my disablement it is me who is breaking the law, not Ableworld.

 

[dishman]

I thought the question was how to test a battery? I think we can assume lead acid, and in a scooter likely AGM, so only way is to read voltage. Either as it stands, or during a discharge or the recovery after a discharge.

That was the original question.

I revived the thread somewhat to muse on what makes for a good replacement.

A lot of the scooter batteries that are available seem to often be random brand names, especially the Lithium ones. It really seems hard to tell good from the bad. Or what makes a good battery other than just looking at Ah ratings.

Are the internals of a Yuasa that much better than a Lucas...for example.
(I think I read that Lucas batteries were made by MK until recently)

I've also realised that it's common for most people to mistreat their batteries. Or have no idea on how often to charge them or when to stop draining them.

 

[ericmark]

It would be a lot of work to convert to lithium, I am sure you can get converter packs, which have all the protection built in, but not seen any, and would think the price would be silly.

Lucas is clearly not really Lucas, they went to the wall with the rest of British Leyland. Who has the name not a clue. I just got cheap, which was just as well as it has sat most of the time rotting in a shed. But the AGM or VRLA battery will stand quite a bit of miss use, at least they don't go up in flames like the lithium.

I can't remember the spec for the scooter now, but seem to remember a 25 mile range, as said at 4 MPH that's 6 hours travelling, which is unlikely, so even if the battery was only half as good as it should be, likely you will still get 10 miles, and that is 2.5 hours travelling, unlikely you will want more.

The first set lasted some 15 - 20 years, problem was one cell went short circuit while on charge, so it fried the remaining cells so both batteries failed together, so had to swap both, could not really have swapped one anyway, as the charger charges them as a pair, it is the main problem, can't remove batteries for charging, have to charge them on the scooter. So when scooter put out of the way in the garage, batteries not charged.

My e-bike very different, I do want the range, and I can remove the 48 volt battery to charge in doors without bringing in whole bike. 12 Ah and using the cycle route if just got me short of Welshpool from Shrewsbury, it would have done it easy if I have used main road. That is lithium and the big problem no warning, there is 4 stages on the meter, once in last stage, one has not got a clue if 5 miles left or ¼ mile.

 

[Rodders53]

Are the internals of a Yuasa that much better than a Lucas...for example.
(I think I read that Lucas batteries were made by MK until recently)

I've also realised that it's common for most people to mistreat their batteries. Or have no idea on how often to charge them or when to stop draining them.

Lucas have been made for the brand by many:
Yuasa made them for Lucas until 2006. Currently Numax make them for Lucas (Tayna website says).

Yuasa are still made in Wales, I believe. https://www.yuasa.co.uk/2021/05/gs-yuasa-celebrate-40-years-of-battery-production-in-south-wales/

MK is a US brand and Tayna seem to rate them highly. (As I said my bad experience clouds my judgement of them; due to that faulty Pride GoGo scooter charger.)

Mistreatment of batteries is commonplace. But I reckon that modern smart chargers are a saving grace when they work correctly. I tend to try to take my scooter batteries off charge shortly after they show green... whether lithium (on the powerchair) or SLA on the GoGo. We'll seldom recharge after every use of them (which is recommended by scooter makers and battery manufacturers)... rather waiting until they are reasonably depleted before doing so. {That will be every day when out and about on holidays, of course. But maybe only weekly otherwise. The makers' predicted range is nowhere near real life use, as Eric correctly points out.}

 

[dishman]

Just thought I'd add a little to this:

I was doing a little experiment to see how much range the existing batteries (that need replacing) go.

As as per above, measured on the multimeter after a full charge, they show 27-28v when tested with no load, but as soon as the scooter is turned on, this drops to 16v. While moving, on high or low speed it drops to 14-15.5v.

This, seems to translate to 4 miles at a push before the LED lights start lose all green indicators and start to dip into the yellow.

Based on the original Ah and range, the batteries would have originally had about 20miles at a push, so, looks like these ones have lost 4/5ths of their total capacity.

But, for 4 miles, they work fine.