Best way to heat a bath with electricity

I suspect the "well insulated" part is what is lacking; ...
Yes, very probably - but unnecessarily. As has recently been discussed, insulation of modern hot water cylinders is very effective - and, as I've said of my own situation, my 'very well insulated' cylinder keeps water pretty hot for well; over 24 hours (plenty long enough for what we are talking about) - and insulation is not particularly expensive.
when there is bountiful energy supply to meet demand, one doesn't have to have much foresight
If there is zero, rather than 'bountiful' amounts of energy available ('in real time') to meet demand at some times of the day (night), it would perhaps be appropriate to engage in some "thought" ;)

Kind Regards, John
 
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i went to tenerife about 20 years ago and assumed the reason for the " avoid showering before 10.30 am " was because the demand may outstrip supply well yes it was not realizing all water was solar heated :giggle:
My daughter has a home in Turkey and the solar water heating works well, but father-in-law had it fitted to a house in North Wales and it was a total flop.

He told us how the electric bill had gone down, likely true as the immersion heater completely removed, and he thought it was working well, until the smart meter was fitted, and then he had no hot water what so ever, at this point I got involved, reason for no hot water was pilot flame had gone out in the boiler, and the solar panel pumps were supplied from a switch marked immersion heater in the kitchen which my father-in-law had switched off, since no immersion heater.

So still did not work after being switched back on, this was summer, so get solar panel expert to re-commission as possible over heated due to pump being switched off, all it would do was take the chill off the water. When he died new owners ripped it all out, it was totally useless.

However the statement for this thread states no town gas supply, but that does not mean can't use LPG gas or oil, but seen no reply as to why LPG or oil not used? Heat pumps are expensive to install, so if only electric can be used, with an immersion heater two methods, direct as with most mainland UK homes, or indirect as with most Ulster homes, the Willis system has some really good reports, by using thermostats on the side of the tank one can select how much hot water is stored, and you can get enough hot water for a washing bowl very fast, but also heat enough for a bath by leaving the immersion on longer, as it heats from the top down, not bottom up like most mainland systems.

However the problem is finding a plumber who knows what he is doing, these Willis-immersion.jpgneed plumbing correctly, and without getting an Irish plumber don't know how you would get it plumbed up?
 
Well, it became thus through its treatment while in service..
It was to my mind a poor installation, at least the isolator switch should have been changed to say nothing, but clearly marked immersion heater it was asking to be switched off in error.

If it could be damaged by switching off, should be warning on it, there was not.

But in rear terms it was a big con.
 
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However the statement for this thread states no town gas supply, but that does not mean can't use LPG gas or oil, but seen no reply as to why LPG or oil not used?
It's going to get "interesting" come 2026. As I read this article, you won't be able to fit or replace a fossil fuelled boiler if you are off-grid (i.e. not on mains gas).
But in rear terms it was a big con.
So much like a lot of the renewables industry - there'll always be people with snake oil to sell.

But, if done right, solar thermal can cut costs - even if it's only "taking the chill off" the incoming cold water. But given how things have developed over the last few years, I suspect it would be better to just have solar PV panels and an immersion heater. It would certainly be more flexible.
 
if done right, solar thermal can cut costs - even if it's only "taking the chill off" the incoming cold water.
Been there, done that, useless. OK daughter in Turkey it worked, father-in-law North Wales complete failure, it was a con, they removed immersion heater so electric cost went down, it was only when the smart meter was fitted and pilot flame went out, realised all hot water was coming from gas not solar, we had people back to try and get it to work, this was the summer, they failed, father-in-law died and house sold it never did work. Looked the part, but did not work.

Only option is electric solar panels and excess fed to immersion heater.

There seems to be some uncertainty as to heat pumps and temperatures for domestic hot water, both gas and heat pumps want the radiators cooler for better efficiency, which means either reduce losses, or increase radiator sizes, and we seem to be leaning towards only heat when required, so reducing looses will not help with reheat times, so with my house to move to heat pumps means a major job, remove the ceilings to install new pipework as the micro bore will not allow enough flow with lower temperatures.

But the major point is with a 60 amp supply there is no way we can have heat pumps and EV charging, if you look at most boilers they exceed 20 kW which is more than the total supply to house, at 2/3 of that, allowing for a heat pump to be more efficient that's the total supply to the house for heating alone, it is a three story house, so it's a non starter.
 
Been there, done that, useless. OK daughter in Turkey it worked, father-in-law North Wales complete failure, it was a con, they removed immersion heater so electric cost went down, it was only when the smart meter was fitted and pilot flame went out, realised all hot water was coming from gas not solar, we had people back to try and get it to work, this was the summer, they failed, father-in-law died and house sold it never did work. Looked the part, but did not work.
You repeat this over and over. One failed installation doesn't make it useless. Ours (fitted by myself) has been providing all our hot water during the summer and a lot during the winter for the last twenty years.
 
Been there, done that, useless. OK daughter in Turkey it worked, father-in-law North Wales complete failure, it was a con, they removed immersion heater so electric cost went down, it was only when the smart meter was fitted and pilot flame went out, realised all hot water was coming from gas not solar, we had people back to try and get it to work, this was the summer, they failed, father-in-law died and house sold it never did work. Looked the part, but did not work.
So bad install, that doesn't mean an install can't be done right - and as you've admitted, you've seen one that does work. And I can remember that something like 40 years ago (so when this was still pretty new stuff in the UK domestic market) we had a neighbour who fitted solar thermal and was very happy with it. He was an engineer, so you can be sure that he'd have been taking readings, drawing graphs (for the youngsters, we used to have paper with a grid on where we'd draw graphs with pencils and pens), and so on.
Only option is electric solar panels and excess fed to immersion heater.
These days I'd probably be leaning that way. One of the big problems with solar thermal is that you gets (if the system works) loads of hot water in the summer when we don't need much, and little in winter when we do need it. So the collector system needs to be sized conservatively to avoid needing large heat dump radiators.
With PV, as you say, you can use that to run an immersion heater (I do wonder about the relative efficiency), and there's equipment to automatically manage that. I wonder if there's an inverter with a variable voltage output so that it can maximise the immersion power while maintaining zero import or export during those periods when the panels produce less than the immersion plus house loads are using ?
There seems to be some uncertainty as to heat pumps and temperatures for domestic hot water
There's no uncertainty there at all. Heat pumps work best at low flow temperatures, and just from a thermodynamic PoV, it's not easy/efficient getting "hot enough" hot water - though I've not had reason to look at that part of the performance tables in the past so I can't be sure whether they can achieve it or not.
The minimum temperature for the DHW cylinder is (from memory) 50˚C, any less and you can't be sure of killing any legionella bacteria in a timely manner. But at the same time, maximum safe temperature (to avoid scalding) from a hot tap is (again from memory) something like 40˚C which is why you'll find TMV (thermostatic mixing valves) under every sink in places with vulnerable people
both gas and heat pumps want the radiators cooler for better efficiency
Which is why I suspect you'll find that many condensing boilers don't condense much (if at all) - especially retrofit's to older systems with lower output radiators.
which means either reduce losses, or increase radiator sizes, and we seem to be leaning towards only heat when required, so reducing looses will not help with reheat times, so with my house to move to heat pumps means a major job, remove the ceilings to install new pipework as the micro bore will not allow enough flow with lower temperatures.
If the designer knows his stuff*, the microbore shouldn't be a problem. But there is a tradeoff between radiator size, achievable flow rates, and flow temperatures. It might mean slightly larger rads removing more heat from a limited flow rate before it goes back to the heat source.
In our house, I've been fitting larger rads as I get round each room "doing up", and except for one room, even in the depths of winter it can keep the room warm at 40˚C flow temperature, and with the flow rate fairly well throttled.
* Yeah, I know, this is an industry where many of the installers arrive by horse and wear a stetson :rolleyes:
But the major point is with a 60 amp supply there is no way we can have heat pumps and EV charging, if you look at most boilers they exceed 20 kW which is more than the total supply to house, at 2/3 of that, allowing for a heat pump to be more efficient that's the total supply to the house for heating alone, it is a three story house, so it's a non starter.
Boilers are generally grossly oversized in a domestic environment - especially combi boilers which have to be well oversized to provide a lacklustre DHW flow rate. Obviously a larger property would need more heating, but our rental flat can be kept toasty with an average of only 2kW in very cold weather - I fitted the thermal store during that very cold spell in Dec 2010, and measured the heating load by running it on the immersion heater for a few days. But for anything better that a dribble, the boiler needs to be around 30kW for DHW. And there are practical limits to how low a boiler can modulate - just shy of 10kW for the boiler in the flat. By the time you are needing significantly more than 10kW for heating in mild weather, you probably need something more than a 30kW (combi) boiler for DHW.

<rant mode>And, a personal opinion here, the whole heating equipment industry (at least, pretty well all of the domestic sector) is barely towards the end of the 20th century in designs. Almost all boilers can't handle more than 20˚C delta-T. So instead, we have systems where we feed hot water directly back into the return, reducing efficiency, and in some cases, preventing condensing. Not to mention the average new build house where they'll have put in (if they could be bothered and didn't leave rolls still wrapped up in the attic) the minimum insulation that meets the regs, and fitted the smallest radiators they thought they could get away with.

Your assessment of the supply situation probably isn't far off. At least modern kit has the option of a CT clamp on the meter tails so it can control demand - so that means your car would charge slowly in cold weather. But it doesn't do much for diversity assumptions the DNOs would have made when sizing the street cables, substation fuses etc.
 
Boilers are generally grossly oversized in a domestic environment - especially combi boilers which have to be well oversized to provide a lacklustre DHW flow rate. Obviously a larger property would need more heating, but our rental flat can be kept toasty with an average of only 2kW in very cold weather ...
Indeed, and I think that's a point which so often goes unconsidered in these discussions about boiler (or whatever) sizing/requirements for CH.

Kind Regards, John
 
It's something I've been looking into again lately as the flat has it's original non-condensing combi - but now only acting as a system boiler with half the combi bits removed. TBH it was on it's last legs over a decade ago, but it's kept going since I removed the troublesome bits and just have it pumping heat into the thermal store.
Yes, it really needs replacing, but ... The flue location is one of those "it's only allowable because it was there before the rules changed, and definitely not suitable for a steamer (condensing boiler)" and the builders didn't really leave other options. Keston have some models that use 50mm PVC pipe which would ease the problem, but the smallest is ... 45kW :eek: Somewhat oversized, apart from being rather pricey as well. And the outer casing is also the front of the combustion chamber, making it illegal for me to take it off to access non-gas stuff.
Given the stored heat, I reckon 20kW should be more than enough, possibly as little as 10kW - but as pointed out, the smallest these days seem to be around the 25-30kW range.
So I'll probably have to get someone in with the right tools to cut me a 110mm hole through two RSJ webs (which are also rather oversized - I suspect some second hand ones the builder had available).
 
So I'll probably have to get someone in with the right tools to cut me a 110mm hole through two RSJ webs (which are also rather oversized - I suspect some second hand ones the builder had available).
One might hope that they were considerably over-sized ... how much of the RSJ be left with such a hole in it ? !

I'm sort of reminded of the photo we've seen of a hole cut in a floor joist for a 110 mm (or whatever) soli pipe :)

Kind Regards, John
 
Years ago we wanted to add a bedroom, and easiest option was to extend the airing cupboard and make it into a bedroom, and install a instant gas DHW boiler, a Main 7 from memory 18 kW, which was ample, although took ½ hour to fill the bath.

However few still use baths, and more than ample for other uses.

We had an independent boiler for central heating, but today both can be combined, and with a W Plan so DHW takes priority clearly 18 kW is enough.

Boiler in this house around 20 kW and ample to maintain the house at 20ºC, but to allow the home to cool overnight, then the reheat time is too long, and the whole idea of only heating as required for whole house the boiler is not big enough.

As a room by room reheat the radiators are not big enough, to use 20 kW one needs 20 kW of radiators switched on, and living room around 12 kW, only way to increase output is really to go fan assisted, but when I looked into the building management system to control these, it went into silly money, so not really an option.

This means to reduce the circulating water temperature means an unacceptable reheat time.

If starting from scratch then yes larger output radiators would be an option and fan assisted means same radiator can be used for heating and cooling, with the condensate pumps included. But as a retro fit, it is far too costly.

But even as a new build, designed to be all electric the supply size will need to be far more than 60 amp. So need to look at other sources, be it solar, wind, bio-mass burning, or any other energy source, and we need a home designed from the start to be able to use this systems in a safe manor, including access to solar panels to clean and maintain, in other words moving to flat roof to mount the panels.

For governments to stipulate how a new build must be designed with solar panels, shutters, LED lighting, maintenance access, etc is all well and good, but to change existing homes is very diffrent, I would not want to work on my roof, and it slopes in the wrong direction, plus being in a steep valley even in summer direct sun light is limited, it also means the valley never gets cold winds either, so not all bad.
 
For governments to stipulate how a new build must be designed with solar panels, shutters, LED lighting, maintenance access, etc is all well and good, but ...
If only.
It's easy to say "I wouldn't start from here", but really, it would be easier if we weren't starting from here.
Building regs, and especially enforcement, are clearly a bit of a joke. And as you say, mandating certain stuff "from some time ago" would have got us to where we should be heading. On that, the rule shouldn't be "use X", but mandate the desired results - the desired result isn't that a house used a heat pump, it's that it creates less CO2 (directly or indirectly).
Same with cars. The idiocy of pushing hydrogen which is possibly the worst fuel for transport use, and now mandating all-electric is the wrong way. Germany finally showed some foresight (a bit late, but better late than never - and I don't car that it's to protect their prestige car industries) in getting "almost past the line" legislation amended to allow the use of e-fuels as zero emission. Until we have an excess of CO2 free lecky, all-electric is far from CO2 free anyway. Mandating cars be flex-fuel (i.e. capable of running on any mix of ethanol, methanol, petrol) say 10-15 years ago would mean most cars now could run on almost anything. And the tech for synthetic fuels (whether that be methanol or more "drop in replacement" types has been mature for a long time. Not to mention, no extra infrastructure as they are all just liquid fuels that we're already set up for.
So all the government had to do was introduce a ratcheting down on emissions for new builds. Gives the developers free reign to trade off the variables to suit the environment. As it is, I think we can be fairly sure that much of the bulk stock of new builds is simply built to a formula - just tick the box for the mandated stuff and that's it. If someone things they have a tech that helps the developer tick those boxes then all they have to do is make a business case that it's cheaper than the alternatives and it would be adopted without government pushing it. I think we're all aware of how well the government does at picking winners ...

Must go, SWMBO has instructed I put away the soap box ...
 
But the major point is with a 60 amp supply there is no way we can have heat pumps and EV charging,
For most properties it's easily done.

Heat requirement for most homes is around 8kW, which is under 3kW input power for a heat pump.
For most of the year, the heating requirement will be a lot less.

EVSE is 7kW maximum, so even with both on at the same time and the heat pump at full power, it's only around 44 amps.
EVSE can be reduced or switched off automatically if other larger loads are used such as cooking.

Obviously items like electric showers and other instantaneous water heaters cannot be used and must go away forever.
 
EVSE can be reduced or switched off automatically if other larger loads are used such as cooking
Or even better, used to power the cooking to ease grid strain at a peak time, having been charged at an off peak time..

Obviously items like electric showers and other instantaneous water heaters cannot be used and must go away forever.
Agree; swap them out for heat pump driven well insulated tanks then the hot water can also be generated with less electricity at an off peak time
 
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