Blanking plate

[JohnW2]

A blanking plate with cables behind it should never be replaced by tiles, plasterboard etc

Of course it shouldn't, but nor should an access hatch' to electrical things under floorboards be covered by carpet, 'lino', vinyl etc - but all those things happen.

All this nonsense is created by the lack of clarity in the big books ,

We've agreed about that but. as I've said, unless 'concealed joints' were totally banned, the big book could never be comprehensive, so there would probably always be scope for debate, argument and differing opinions.

.... so people then mainly cutting corners do all sorts of undesirable things .... Obviously made worse by dubious advice off internet forums by people who are unskilled or untrained or oblivious to good practice

The good thing about 'internet forums' is that the advice is given 'in public', so anything incorrect or undesirably will nearly always get challenged/corrected by other people. Worse, in my opinion, is 'guidance' given by trade and other organisations, since that is not given in a 'discussion' environment, where incorrect, undesirable or 'mythical' ideas of the organisation can be challenged.

 

[Murdochcat]

The draft of AMD 4 allegedly is suggesting more clarification about EICR coding

Talk about shutting the stable door far too late

And on this subject NAPIT are still peddling Code Breakers with some very dubious advice

 

[JohnW2]

The draft of AMD 4 allegedly is suggesting more clarification about EICR coding

If that's true, long before it's time. If they want an example to help them, they could do worse than look at MOTs - some things (e.g. degrees of corrosion or degrees of 'slackness of joints) will inevitably always require some degree of judgement./discretion on the part of the inspector, but at least they give proscriptive criteria whenever they can. As you go on to say ...

Talk about shutting the stable door far too late

And on this subject NAPIT are still peddling Code Breakers with some very dubious advice

They are not alone and, as I said, the problem with the 'guidance' the various organisations offer is that, unlike advice given in internet forums, it is not given in a context which allows people to challenge, debate or discuss the view they have decided to take.

 

[ebee]

Fair enough - but we've heard stories of people wallpapering , plastering or tiling over backboxes (sometimes even blank plates or accessories!) containing 'joints', so if we took your thinking to its ultimate conclusion, we presumably would not accept that even a blank plate, or even accessory was an adequate indicator of 'joints behind', because someone might come along and 'hide' it

Case in point, I put a socket in a kitchen, vertical chase from ceiling..
They then filled the room above with furniture.
Couple of weeks later they rearranged to dimensions of proposed kitchen units.
socket now needs moving horizontal.
Do you want to remove furniture from upstairs or put a blanking plate in socket position and chase and put socket horizontal from it?
answer - horizontal.

6 months later I visited, no blanking plate!
Was told that the plasterer removed blanking plate, put in a rectangle of plasterboard, skimmed over, nice neat wall. Zone lost!
I explained the problem but never heard from then again.

Another time, similar problem at another house, did a few additions, I noticed a cable in the pantry under the staircase.
Horizontal cable running the width of staircase unprotected against mechanical damage.
Explained the problem, added trunking to protect the cable.
A few days later I noticed no trunking. Plasterer had underboarded and skimmed, trunking and cable buried now. Lost zone.

 

[SUNRAY]

Case in point, I put a socket in a kitchen, vertical chase from ceiling..
They then filled the room above with furniture.
Couple of weeks later they rearranged to dimensions of proposed kitchen units.
socket now needs moving horizontal.
Do you want to remove furniture from upstairs or put a blanking plate in socket position and chase and put socket horizontal from it?
answer - horizontal.

6 months later I visited, no blanking plate!
Was told that the plasterer removed blanking plate, put in a rectangle of plasterboard, skimmed over, nice neat wall. Zone lost!
I explained the problem but never heard from then again.

Another time, similar problem at another house, did a few additions, I noticed a cable in the pantry under the staircase.
Horizontal cable running the width of staircase unprotected against mechanical damage.
Explained the problem, added trunking to protect the cable.
A few days later I noticed no trunking. Plasterer had underboarded and skimmed, trunking and cable buried now. Lost zone.

A housing developement all the switches and sockets at the same height, basically one main chase round most of the rooms at that height on both floors, except more than onece the chase runs along a wall with no accessories but ducks through to the next room or goes up and over a door or under a window.

 

[JohnW2]

...... put a blanking plate in socket position and chase and put socket horizontal from it ..... 6 months later I visited, no blanking plate!
Was told that the plasterer removed blanking plate, put in a rectangle of plasterboard, skimmed over, nice neat wall. Zone lost

Another time, .... added trunking to protect the cable. ... A few days later I noticed no trunking. Plasterer had underboarded and skimmed, trunking and cable buried now. Lost zone.

Yep, as I said! Whether it is a 'visible something' creating a 'zone', or a 'visible something' rendering the joint below it 'not concealed', some jokers will hide them, rendering them 'non-visible'..

However, as I've also said/implied, there's not really anything the regs could do about that, other than completely banning concealed joints or buried cable (unless in conduit).

Kind Regards, John

 

[ebee]

A housing developement all the switches and sockets at the same height, basically one main chase round most of the rooms at that height on both floors, except more than onece the chase runs along a wall with no accessories but ducks through to the next room or goes up and over a door or under a window.

Not Good

 

[Murdochcat]

A housing developement all the switches and sockets at the same height, basically one main chase round most of the rooms at that height on both floors, except more than onece the chase runs along a wall with no accessories but ducks through to the next room or goes up and over a door or under a window.

unacceptable. going into the adjacent room is OK as long as it goes to points in there

 

[ebee]

unacceptable. going into the adjacent room is OK as long as it goes to points in there

Agreed.

Also

"goes up and over a door or under a window." do not sound good unless in zones.

 

[SUNRAY]

going into the adjacent room is OK as long as it goes to points in there

Agreed.

Also

"goes up and over a door or under a window." do not sound good unless in zones.

Not when there are no accessories on the side of the wall where the chase is.

 

[ebee]

Not when there are no accessories on the side of the wall where the chase is.

I`m unsure whether that statement agrees or disagrees with us two , I think you agree but it might help mee brain if you confirm

 

[SUNRAY]

I`m unsure whether that statement agrees or disagrees with us two , I think you agree but it might help mee brain if you confirm

Do you think it's appropriate to have cables buried in a horizontal chase in a completely blank wall?

 

[ebee]

Do you think it's appropriate to have cables buried in a horizontal chase in a completely blank wall?

Yes Correct, I agree, there is no safe zone on horizontals (and verticals) if completely blank.
It is just reading your post it might not have been what you were saying so I just wanted it clearing up.
So goody.

so just the corners (which I do not like but are permitted) and the top of the wall which I like even less.

Windows and door frames would not usually be a zone either but I suppose a double skinned wall with a largish cavity filled in at the end elevation with stone/brick etc might just qualify as used as a door/window frame to a pedant too but not really to me, I think that would be pushing the limit rather a bit but I suppose a pedant might argue that one being a corner formed by two walls. You know what some folk are like.

 

[DetlefSchmitz]

So what ever happened to:
Where the location of the accessory, point or switchgear can be determined from the reverse side, a zone formed on one side of a wall of 100 mm thickness or less or partition of 100 mm thickness or less extends to the reverse side...

 

[JohnW2]

As a general comment ....

These discussions amongst electricians and others who undertake electrical work about regulations and practices in relation to 'concealed cables' (particularly the location and 'identification') of the 'permitted zones') are all very well, but none of that achieves anything much unless other tradespeople (and 'DIYers') who undertake non-electrical work fully understand those (electrical) regulations and practices.

I'm far from convinced that many of these people who undertake non-electrical work do know much about these issues. Indeed, I'm not at all sure that relevant tradespeople etc. (builders, carpenters, kitchen fitters, plumbers, heating engineers' etc. etc.) are even taught about such things if /when they undergo formal training, and it seems even less likely that 'DIYers' will know about these things.