Business Practice/Payments/Deposits, Etc.

[AtoZ]

i would' pay if i was happy with the man i was paying.


..

i clearly didnt read the thread well enough because i see now that you have tried to compromise with the 25% i thought this had been a suggestion not an offer as such.

my comment was based on the trust and wider implications.
good luck with finding someone.

 

[pbar]

No worries, thanks for your post.
I have someone else in mind, soon have it sorted I hope.

 

[Shytalkz]

Jeez, is this thread still going?!

 

[str]

"2. Surely every tradesman in every trade takes a risk when they buy materials. Isn't that normal? Although the risk is low in my case, I've had lots of jobs done, paid on the dot every time, even going out of my way to pay people, as I have done with him in the past, and he knows so, and he knows me. But he doesn't have to take all the risk, I would pay a deposit of course, but he doesn't wish to budge on almost 50%, £1300. "

You say that every tradesman takes a risk in buying materials, which I completely agree with - typically though, most trades, buying timber, pipework, etc, if the job doesn't happen, they can use the material on another job and only have to carry the expenditure on materials over time.

However, you are asking your fitter to risk £1,300 on materials that are bespoke to your house/porch - very unlikely that they are going to fit on the next job, or on the next 10 after that.

If you ordered a bespoke, made to measure piece of furniture, would you still have issues in paying 50% upfront?

As someone else says, its trust on both sides of this and also each of you carrying some of the risk

 

[gremlin16]

Would YOU pay £1300 pro-forma to a window company. No, thought not.

Correct.

I was daft enough to pay£ 4500 for a made to mesure (bespoke) conservatory.

I felt cheated that my installer had offered me the chance of buying a conservatory for trade price.

I felt cheated and out of pocket when the installer completed the work on time and gave me a full written guarantee from the manufacture.



pbar get a life, or at least move into the real world

 

[craig51]

Ok, i am writing this from a customer POV, but will hopefully be a 'trade' person soon so have an interest in this post.

I had a bathroom fitted last year. Got a tiler in, he quoted a price for fitting them for me. He also said he could get any tiles for me at trade price, just tell him where and the code, and he would get them, but I would have to pay for this upfront.

As it turned out, the tiles alone accounted for 70% of the cost(really nice tiles), but I would never expect any tiler to pay for this on his tab, arrive at my door, fit them, and then for me to say "I wanst happy and dont want them". I'm sure this happens and is very unfair on the tradesman.

As mentioned before, the tiles bought were for my bathroom/taste etc, which should he had bought them himself, would find hard to use anywhere else as tiles is a customer dependent choice, just like windows.

In my view, any materials ,i dont mind paying for as and when they arrive at my door as I then own them. Labour however, I only pay once the job in complete and to a good standard.

In the OP case, the windows will be customer specific, not just in size, but design, colour etc etc. therefore in my opinion its only right he pays for it upfront. I can understand where hes coming from re paying for them direct with company, therefore no paper trail that the trademan has been invovled should things me meausred wrong etc, but surely something signed stating that the tradesman will be responsible for any errors would negate this.

 

[Softus]

Everyone seems to agree with me, that they wouldn't pay £1300 up front for windows, both on here and in 'real life'.

Well not everyone, because I utterly disagree.

I've just re-read the original post, and realised that I didn't read it properly the first time.

You've masked the issue by referring to these special windows as if they were ordinary materials.

If the installer pays for these then he's effectively loaning you the cost of them until after the job is complete. This would be an utterly ridiculous thing to do for zero profit on the materials, so he's offered you the opportunity to buy direct from his supplier at his trade price.

Traders aren't banks.

When you engage a trader to do a job, you're hiring their expertise and time. The materials they use are merely what you'd have to pay for up front if you were doing the job yourself. Hence, when traders provide materials that aren't special, then they do so with a markup that covers the cost of procuring the materials and of loaning the cost of them to the customer.

IMHO his approach is completely reasonable and businesslike, although his wife wasn't so professional in her conversation with you, but that doesn't change the underlying principles.

You're going elsewhere, but you'll end up paying over the odds for a company who loans you the cost of the windows and adds its own markup. If not, then you'll engage someone less capable who has to cut prices in order to get work.

Those are the simple economics of this situation, and your nose is out of joint simply because of your false perception of not being trusted.

People, perhaps not you, often forget that when the job is done the trader still has to do the following:

Produce an invoice.
Put it in an envelope and post it to you.
Bank your cheque (or cash) and pay the bank for processing it.
Replenish any stock that was used.
Pay suppliers.
Pay the bank for processing supplier payments.
Put fuel in the car/van.
Pay the bank for processing the payment for fuel.
Do the accounting, or pay someone to do it.
Pay the accountant.
Pay the bank for processing the accountant's payment.
Pay the taxman.
Pay the bank for processing the taxman's payment.
Pay the bank for the privilege of being able to pay them.

And, if there's anyone reading this who thinks that's all an insignificant amount of work and money, then why don't you offer to pay the trader a little something extra to cover the cost of doing it?

 

[r.bartlett]

In my previous company we would have a 50% deposit scheme in place for any new installations (air conditioning)

We would then plan the date and arrive.

One time the cheque was late and the day arrived the kit ordered and sent.I remember sitting in a customers place with the boxes unopened and the customer saying "Just start I will get you the cheque as soon as the accountant arrives" Needless to say we didn't start till after lunch and needless to say the customer was very very late with the remaining 50%

In fact every customer who was slow to pay the 50% was extremely slow at paying the final instalment.

Another was where we had a 50k job and a Mexican standoff where the customer wouldn't pay for the kit till it arrived and we wouldn't deliver it till he paid. We eventually agreed to send it all to site and he would hand over the cheque. He paid up the rest no problem.

I know a lot of small one man bands in our game where they get the customer to pay the supplier direct.

Personally if I was the guy I would walk away from your job.

Cheers

Richard

 

[hairyben]

On rewires I ask for 50% at halfway stage. thus the customer can see that works been done before being asked to cough anything up, and I'm covered for costs before the works complete. Balence invoiced on completion.

That said, I can kinda understand anyone in the biz of having anything bespoke made up wanting full materials cost up front though. Sure, you can make the customer sign a contract and take 'em to court if they bail, but it's not as easy as all that for the small contracter, the best you may get after legal bills and days off work is an attachment to a property and still be owed the money in 20 years.

I've got several hundred quids worth of light fittings in my garage ordered for customers who changed their mind/won't return calls/claimed they were wrong etc etc. New customers are now asked to make a deposit when they select a light fitting from one of my catalogs.

 

[Norcon]

pbar wrote

Would you pay £1300 pro-forma for windows to be fitted?

No I wouldn't.
But in your original post you said the cheque is made payable to the window supplier.
This makes the windows your property does it not ?
I would have no problem with that and would write the cheque.
When the windows have been fitted by the fitters and I was happy with the work then I would settle the remaining amount.

 

[Blasphemous]

Flamin Norra have these not been fitted yet?

 

[Norcon]

Flamin Norra have these not been fitted yet?

Not yet. His cheque bounced .

 

[dave1953]

If the guy who's fitting these windows is FENSA registered he's regulated and checked if he's not he should'nt be fitting them anyway.At least as has been said he's not whacking on a large management fee on the materials.

_____________________________

Remember as one door shuts yet another one closes

 

[pbar]

Would YOU pay £1300 pro-forma to a window company. No, thought not.

Correct.

I was daft enough to pay£ 4500 for a made to mesure (bespoke) conservatory.

I felt cheated that my installer had offered me the chance of buying a conservatory for trade price.

I felt cheated and out of pocket when the installer completed the work on time and gave me a full written guarantee from the manufacture.

In the real world, there is no other window company that asks for 50% up front. I challenge you to find one. I have someone else fitting them now, and I'm very thankful that I didn't go with the other guy, as I have since found out he is not what he seems any more, and something has been going on. I'm thankful I made the right decision. And relieved!
I knew I was right.



pbar get a life, or at least move into the real world

In the real world, no other window company asks for 50% up front. I have someone else fitting them now and I'm glad. I have since learned that the other guy is not what he seems any more, and things are not as they should be. I am just thankful that I made the right decision, and relieved!
I knew I was right to be suspicious.
I'm glad that your job worked out for you.

 

[pbar]

pbar wrote

Would you pay £1300 pro-forma for windows to be fitted?

No I wouldn't.
But in your original post you said the cheque is made payable to the window supplier.
This makes the windows your property does it not ?
I would have no problem with that and would write the cheque.
When the windows have been fitted by the fitters and I was happy with the work then I would settle the remaining amount.

Yes, they would be my property, (although I am not sure of the legalities of this, as, even though the cheque would come from me, he is still their customer I believe) and if there's something wrong, an error on the part of the fitter for example, I'm stuck with them. That's one of the dangers I was worried about. If he can't pay for them now, then he can't pay for replacements.