Condensing boiler exemption

[JohnHarrison]

Still hasn't answered my very simple question... How convenient!

Here is what you wrote:
John... Let's ask this in a very clear way...

How are you going to get around the fact that a boiler flue (condensing OR NOT) is not allowed to terminate into/onto land which you do not own?

Your exemption is irrelevant because your existing boiler is already non-compliant and a new one would HAVE to be compliant.

That was answered in my post, posted at 11:14.

 

[denso13]

Follow the flow chart. If it isn't difficult to fit a condensing boiler then you fit it - you don't get the option of filling in the "points" assessment. Simple.

Crack on with it though, it's been your intention from the beginning.

 

[JohnHarrison]

Follow the flow chart. If it isn't difficult to fit a condensing boiler then you fit it - you don't get the option of filling in the "points" assessment. Simple.

Holy Moses!!!

http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/uploads/br/BR_PDF_PTL_DOMHEAT.pdf.

Here is what the flow chart on page 69 says (in bold):
Is it difficult to fit a condensing boiler in this building?
Yes, as the freeholder will not allow a plume or an extension pipe. So Yes is selected.

Is it possible to fit a condensing boiler in this building?
No, as the freeholder will not allow a plume or an extension pipe. So No is selected.

Complete form and declaration.

Fit non-condensing boiler in position chosen by customer.

It is that easy. It is so obvious.

The points system, which D Hailsham posted is on page 72, that wraps it all up. A non-condensing boiler is easy to fit in flats.

Although you do not understand the regs from page 69 onwards, I do thank you for posting this document.

 

[St0rmer66]

I checked out his conclusion and he was right

He wasn't.

As I said before the owner's preferences don't come in to it, it is the law.

Can you show me that law please? You are 100% wrong. No flat owner has the right to fit equipment in someone else's property unless that person or organisation gives permission. That is very simple and fundamental in law. In my case the lease is very specific and later letters have clarified the situation. This will be the case for 99% of blocks of flats. Even in a house you cannot have a plume wafting across a neighbour's open window, so a non-condensing boiler/combi can go in there.

No, you're right, they can't force you to fit it. But they CAN stop you installing something not permitted by the law just because you or someone else just doesn't like the look of it. If you think you qualify for an exemption then by all means APPLY for it. Application does not mean acceptance though no matter how many points you have.

Again, correct, you cannot put a condensing boiler in where the plume will cause a nuisance but that's why they have plume management kits and condensing boilers are much more flexible with lengths and routes than standard efficiency boilers ever were in the first place.

 

[D_Hailsham]

The lease states we CANNOT penetrate any external walls without permission. ... the freeholder issued a letter that non-condensing boilers must not be fitted stating the nuisance factor of the steam/vapour plume and no extension flues may be fitted as permission will not be granted.

I think you mean condensing!

So I am going to have an SE fitted.

If you don't want to have trouble in the future, when you sell the flat, you should get a proper assessment done by a Gas Safe Registered engineer. This will prove to prospective buyers that a non-condensing boiler was permitted. If you really want belt-and braces, get something in writing from the landlord that you are permitted to fit the flue through the wall and for the boiler fumes to discharge onto the landing.

 

[St0rmer66]

Follow the flow chart. If it isn't difficult to fit a condensing boiler then you fit it - you don't get the option of filling in the "points" assessment. Simple.

Holy Moses!!!



Here is what the flow chart on page 69 says (in bold):
Is it difficult to fit a condensing boiler in this building?
Yes, as the freeholder will not allow a plume or an extension pipe. So Yes is selected.

Is it possible to fit a condensing boiler in this building?
No, as the freeholder will not allow a plume or an extension pipe. So No is selected.

Complete form and declaration.

Fit non-condensing boiler in position chosen by customer.

It is that easy. It is so obvious.

The points system, which D Hailsham posted is on page 72, that wraps it all up. A non-condensing boiler is easy to fit in flats.

It is not "difficult" to fit one at all, it is personal preference that one is not fitted by the owner which does not qualify as difficult. It IS possible to fit one, again - personal preference does not come into it.

You're wrong .

By all means don't take our word for it... Get a building control expert in to do a survey for you. He will confirm what we say.

 

[JohnHarrison]

I checked out his [D Hailsham] conclusion and he was right

He wasn't.

As I said before the owner's preferences don't come in to it, it is the law.

Can you show me that law please? You are 100% wrong. No flat owner has the right to fit equipment in someone else's property unless that person or organisation gives permission. That is very simple and fundamental in law. In my case the lease is very specific and later letters have clarified the situation. This will be the case for 99% of blocks of flats. Even in a house you cannot have a plume wafting across a neighbour's open window, so a non-condensing boiler/combi can go in there.

No, you're right, they can't force you to fit it. But they CAN stop you installing something not permitted by the law just because you or someone else just doesn't like the look of it. If you think you qualify for an exemption then by all means APPLY for it. Application does not mean acceptance though no matter how many points you have.

Again, correct, you cannot put a condensing boiler in where the plume will cause a nuisance but that's why they have plume management kits and condensing boilers are much more flexible with lengths and routes than standard efficiency boilers ever were in the first place.

Nice to see you agree with me and are applying some reasoning, unlike others who are trying to save face. I know about plume kits and in the case of flats if the freeholders say "no I will not have one on my property" then they do not apply.

Your prime point is that if an installation gets the points to exempt a condensing boiler it may be turned down. Will you point to something in the document that says that? I have not seen it. The points system is the points system and hard and fast. If the points say it is exempt, it is exempt.

 

[JohnHarrison]

The lease states we CANNOT penetrate any external walls without permission. ... the freeholder issued a letter that non-condensing boilers must not be fitted stating the nuisance factor of the steam/vapour plume and no extension flues may be fitted as permission will not be granted.

I think you mean condensing!

So I am going to have an SE fitted.

If you don't want to have trouble in the future, when you sell the flat, you should get a proper assessment done by a Gas Safe Registered engineer. This will prove to prospective buyers that a non-condensing boiler was permitted. If you really want belt-and braces, get something in writing from the landlord that you are permitted to fit the flue through the wall and for the boiler fumes to discharge onto the landing.

D Hailsham, I meant condensing, a typo. I will change it. A proper assessment will be done and it is exempt. A non-condensing combi will be fitted. Having large bore ugly plastic pipes all over the block will lower the value of the flats so it is in our interests to keep the block as tidy as possible.

Replacing type for type in penetrating the walls will not be a problem in law. The flats have been discharging flues into the open landings for 15 to 20 years. It is when you deviate from what is already there that problems will arise. Thanks for your comments.

 

[JohnHarrison]

Regarding cowboy installers fitting condensing boilers in flats. In an old nearby block a cowboy connected the condensation drain to an old 3/4 inch or 22mm copper pipe that was once the overflow for a bath. It permanently made the landing floor wet and formed ice in winter. No plume kit was fitted with vapour clouding the landing to the annoyance of the residents. The absent owner who rented the flat out was informed but he couldn't care less as he was not living there and it would cost him money to put right the cowboy installation. One of the neighbours pumped into the copper pipe silicon and tightened on the pipe a brass compression cap. The condensate then overflowed inside the boiler. He had to get it fixed. The freeholder wrote a letter, under pressure from the residents, that a flue extension cannot be fitted on the common landing and the plume must be removed. The absent owner of the flat had to remove the condensing boiler and fit a non-condensing model. Nice touch from the residents there. He deserved it for going to cheap cowboys.

 

[denso13]

and it is exempt

No, it isn't.

 

[JohnHarrison]

and it is exempt

No, it isn't.

This is hilarious Some here have no common sense whatsoever. I even wrote the flow chart out for you, and others, and walked you through it explaining how it works and how it is exempt.

 

[St0rmer66]

and it is exempt

No, it isn't.

This is hilarious Some here have no common sense whatsoever. I even wrote the flow chart out for you, and others, and walked you through it explaining how it works and how it is exempt.

You've not said a single VALID reason for being exempt. As I stated, not liking the look of either the plume or the plastic flue is not reason enough to be exempt. Whether it's you personally or the building owner is irrelevant. You do not have the RIGHT to have a gas central heating boiler installed. If you cannot install a new one because the owner of your building is awkward then you have to look at other methods of heating your water and flat (e.g. Electric). Unless you've neglected to tell us that you live in a listed building then you don't have a leg to stand on.

 

[JohnHarrison]

Follow the flow chart. If it isn't difficult to fit a condensing boiler then you fit it - you don't get the option of filling in the "points" assessment. Simple.

Holy Moses!!!

Here is what the flow chart on page 69 says (in bold):
Is it difficult to fit a condensing boiler in this building?
Yes, as the freeholder will not allow a plume or an extension pipe. So Yes is selected.

Is it possible to fit a condensing boiler in this building?
No, as the freeholder will not allow a plume or an extension pipe. So No is selected.

Complete form and declaration.

Fit non-condensing boiler in position chosen by customer.

It is that easy. It is so obvious.

The points system, which D Hailsham posted is on page 72, that wraps it all up. A non-condensing boiler is easy to fit in flats.

It is not "difficult" to fit one at all, it is personal preference that one is not fitted by the owner which does not qualify as difficult. It IS possible to fit one, again - personal preference does not come into it.

I CANNOT fit a plume pipe FULL STOP!! Personal preference from me does not come into it. I would like a condensing boiler as they are slightly cheaper to run but I CANNOT have one.

By all means don't take our word for it... Get a building control expert in to do a survey for you. He will confirm what we say.

I will not take the word of you or desno13 (who thinks black is white) and others for sure. I only go by the regs and from page 69 onwards my flat is exempt. In fact most flats are exempt reading it.

Have you read from page 69 onwards?

 

[St0rmer66]

Why can't you have one fitted? The owner of the building says no. This is not a "law", it is the preference of the owner for aesthetic reasons. So it "can" be fitted but you are not allowed by the owner. Does NOT qualify for exemption, it's not the law's fault that your owner chooses not to have them on show.

And yes, I have read it. But the difference is I have practical knowledge of how it is applied, unlike you.

 

[denso13]

I only go by the regs and from page 69 onwards my flat is exempt

No, it isn't.