Copper vs Plastic

[gavinda]

notice how **** face allways refers to himself in 3rd person. maybe he's an alias of himself. now im confused.

 

[screech]

Could you be more specific about the number you've seen?

For example, is it 1-5? 6-20? 21-50? More?

so far this year i've seen 2 ceilings down, last year probably about between 15-20, i don't count exactly

And were they the same brand, or a variety of brands?

john guest. although i have seen a copper push fit come off a pipe but that was because the pipe had frozen so it was a case of the pipe burst or the push fit give way

If the latter, did one brand account for most of the leaks, or was it seemingly random?

john guest, but that's purely because it's the most common they've been fitting

And what proportion of the installations used plastic pipe with the push-fit fittings, compared to those that used copper tube?

no idea exact percentages, i have other stuff to think about rather than count how many failures i go to over a year. mostly plastic

And of those that used copper, in how many cases was the tube in new and perfect condition, i.e. not dented, squashed, or deformed, and in how many cases were the push-fit fittings installed onto old copper pipework?

And of those that used plastic, did you examine the pipe and verify that it hadn't been scratched or scored?

the majority were plastic pipe not scored, i simply replaced the fitting with a compression one! the pipes were new - in extensions, renovations or new houses

The only ways that a push-fit fitting can leak, other than on the O ring, is by breaking/splitting or by the pipe pulling out of the grab ring. Are you saying that you've seen numerous fittings break/split? Or were the failures caused by the pipe pulling out?

If the latter, then did you examine the grab rings? If so, were they flawed? If so, were they went back to the manufacturer? If not, then why not?

grab rings looked fine i didn't inspect with a magnifying glass however. i just bin them, not wasting my time sending a cheap fitting back as i didn't supply it so makes no difference to me, i know that makes me the devil but i go to work, do my job then go home to my family

You seem to be implying that some of the instances you've seen were correctly installed, but are you claiming that in all cases the pipework was clipped at the distances stipulated by the manufacturer, and that the correct provision was made for thermal expansion?

pipes clipped, loads of space for expansion.

If so, can you indicate, roughly, the proportion of "quite a few ceilings" that were brought down by correctly installed push-fit fittings?

i don't count how many, i don't have a chart or excel spreadsheet detailing every thing i do. i'd say probably about half.

Again, were they the same brand, or a variety of brands?

john guest

If the latter, did one brand account for most of the leaks, or was it seemingly random?

same

If it's not that common, then it's reasonable to use the word "rare", or "unusual". Given that it's unusual, or even rare, for push-fit, what word would you use to describe how often, by comparison, you see problems with eroded, or corroded copper on soldered installations, leaking joints on badly installed compression fittings, and split pipes or olives pushed off by water freezing inside copper pipes?

it's also reasonable to use the phrase 'not that common' the difference between the plastic and the copper pipes that have brought ceilings down is the copper has normally had a nail put through it or is 20+ years old! i've not actually seen an olive pushed off a copper pipe due to freezing, for as long as i can remember anyway, the pipes have burst before that point, the same goes for plastic with compression on.

Who made the estimation of 30-50 years?

the scientists, i don't know them personally

Time and time again? Really? Are you saying that the same novices repeatedly make the same mistake? Surely people who make a mistake are made wiser by the experience, and are unlikely to make the same mistake time and time again?

wrong, it's normally in new houses (and further down you back me up saying it happens time and again ), they install it and a few years later when it leaks it's up to someone else to sort it out, so they don't learn because by the time it's gone wrong they've washed their hands of it

Is it more that case that "time and time again" just a handy phrase to use, in order to create the impression of a wealth of examples of failures caused by novices?

nope

The reality, i.e. not the 'wrong' impression that you imply, is that plastic pipe and push-fit fittings give diyers the correct idea that they can do jobs they couldn't have done with copper. This is a fact, not a myth, or the mistake that you imply.

And if you're right, that novices make a great many mistakes, and make them "time and time again", (sic.), then those are ALL installation errors, not manufacturing or design faults.

that's why i said it's installation errors and not manufacturing/construction errors!

Perfect example of what? Clearly not of novices using the products wrongly, so do you mean that new build faults are the perfect example of installation errors?

yes. novices do normally make many errors as well but only in their own houses

If I chose a new build estate near where I live, I could easily argue that you're 100% wrong, since in a sample of around 50 properties, I can count at least 50 leaks that have arisen from shabbily made compression joints, over-rigid installation that doesn't allow for building movement, failure to flush systems resulting in copper corrosion within four years, use of tap connectors with cheap fibre washers made from a material similar in strength and porosity to porridge, and misalignment of rigid copper pipework causing strain in, and failure of, plastic WC float valve shanks.

In all of those 50 properties, not one single leak resulted from a failed plastic pipe, a push-fit fitting, or an O ring failure.

If you find any claim from me, on any post, on any topic, regarding the number of leaks on non plastic, and non push-fit, installations that I've seen, I can look through my records and tell you the precise number.

you're talking about a new estate where you live not where i live

you've just said that new houses are a good example of incorrectly installed systems and agreed with my statement that the same people make the same mistakes again and again! thank you for backing me up on that one!

So, how have you collected your statistics?

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

i get the impression that you're very very argumentative and hate anyone who has a different opinion from you so feel you must bombard them until they give in. i await your very long reply in which you will do you best to belittle me again because i don't have exact statistics and photgraphic evidence

or you could just accept that i have a different opinion and have seen different things happen than you and leave it at a truce

 

[BigBurner]

If I say it happened, it happened.

I have absolutely no doubt at all that you believe that it happened.
It's the chasm between your 'reality' and everyone else's that remains unbreached.

You are in a minority of one.

 

[pipeslice]

My argument is that the old guy who trained me was coming up to 60yrs old he might well of been set in his ways but what ever he did or made me do his way never leaked and always circulated
He never used plastic even till his time was up some 10yrs ago RIP Raymond
All joints were solder , wiped screwed or cualked
But can`t help feeling his proffesional approach to plumbing and heating was second to NONE
What would he make now of plastic

As for the Big freeeeeeeezing debate something has to give and it`s use allly the weekest part .
In my time of training it was the copper pipe as the fitting was 2 / 3 times the thickness of the pipe, the only time a fitting would push off was on alkathene MDPE but as all installers kno nowadays there s no call out really for frozen systems

 

[blondini]

duly fitted the suggested push fit plastic iso valve.

Untitled

• redpis
• 4 Jan 2009
• 1

Iso valve assembly failed feeding external taps, suspect pipe freezing causing 'plugging'

This had been fitted in accordance with instructions

No it hadn't - there are no collet covers or collet clips.

Use of collet covers or collet clips on fittings recommended.

Also, you let it freeze.

My 2 pence worth back on topic, use copper.

If you're arguing that copper is better, be honest - would you have a copper installation freeze without expecting damage?

Funnily enough, JG claim that Hep20 can absorb the expansion of freezing without rupture. The danger arises where there is nearby metal pipework or taps in the system.

3. Problem: Split fittings
Probable Cause:
Formation of ice within a system containing metal pipework, or adjacent to metal taps.
NB: Water freezes at 0°C and increases in volume until it reaches -4°C and 9% volume increase. Hep2O® pipe can absorb this volume increase without rupture, but if metal pipe or components are involved in the system, the extra pressure generated may occasionally be sufficient to split the fitting. Evidence: Splitting of fitting or fitting pulled off pipe after severe cold spell - deformation of grab wedge.

 

[Softus]

You are in a minority of one.

Indeed so. Everyone is, except you.