Copper vs Plastic

[gavinda]

one thing noone has mentioend yet is rodent damage. ive had untold problems with plastic where little hairy things have gnawed thier way through the pipe. this is made even more apita where the plastic has been used for 'poor access' reasons.

i too feel that plastic may be ok but the ability to flex it and push the limits just leads to abuse by the clueless. give me well installed copper everytime. ive just changed a stcky trv on my system and the water is still crystal 3 years on.

 

[screech]

Rember this

the trouble with push fit fittings is they look rubbish

Do these look like rubbish?

View media item 7286
And these?

View media item 7287
yes i've seen them fitted and they look rubbish compared with a proper soldered fitting, they look diy!

they are a complete bodge

Please define "complete" and "bodge".

i've seen many many people install things themselves using plastic pipe or fittings, they bend it all over the place then put a push fit on it to join it all up. you look at the way it's installed and it looks like it was done by a blind monkey! it's a bodgers dream as it involves no effort.

the seals are rubber

Are they? Where did you read that?

that's what i was told, i don't mind being wrong about that.

anyone that works on boilers knows that rubber o rings aren't the most long lived form of seal.

What would you prefer to use on an appliance that has to be capable of repeated thermal cycling from 0 to 100°C, or as defined by BS 7291: Part 1: 2001? Boss White, perhaps?

i'm saying the seals aren't as reliable as a proper soldered joint. joints that can move about have a tendency to leak over time. for example if you fit a part in a boiler and both ends have a rubber o ring you'll be pretty much guaranteed to have to replace the o ring the other end, you don't have to resolder other fittings if working on a fitting further down.

 

[Softus]

Do these look like rubbish?

View media item 7286

yes i've seen them fitted and they look rubbish compared with a proper soldered fitting, they look diy!

But they're copper, so don't the people who use only copper like them?

they are a complete bodge

Please define "complete" and "bodge".

i've seen many many people install things themselves using plastic pipe or fittings, they bend it all over the place then put a push fit on it to join it all up. you look at the way it's installed and it looks like it was done by a blind monkey! it's a bodgers dream as it involves no effort.

It doesn't take zero effort to install it in accordance with the MIs. If people don't follow the MIs then they aren't installing it correctly. Nothing works as designed if it's not installed correctly.

I thought you wanted a sensible discussion about the pros and cons of each material when it's installed correctly, not a comparison between properly installed soldered copper and badly installed alternatives.

the seals are rubber

Are they? Where did you read that?

that's what i was told, i don't mind being wrong about that.

You don't mind being wrong? How many other things do you post that you've "just been told", and about whose verity you have no confidence?!

In fact, what's the point of you posting here at all if you can't discriminate between fact and fiction? This isn't a chat forum for just tossing in opinions and hoping for the best, as if you were a junior numpty chef in a Gordon Ramsay restaurant - this is a useful forum providing a service to novices, so if you can't be accurate then you're wasting everyone's time.

anyone that works on boilers knows that rubber o rings aren't the most long lived form of seal.

What would you prefer to use on an appliance that has to be capable of repeated thermal cycling from 0 to 100°C, or as defined by BS 7291: Part 1: 2001? Boss White, perhaps?

i'm saying the seals aren't as reliable as a proper soldered joint.

Rubbish. I've seen thousands of copper pipes corroded by flux and eroded by water, and zero plastic pipes suffering from either problem. I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of failed plastic push-fit fittings I've seen, and they were ALL down to poor installation.

joints that can move about have a tendency to leak over time.

FFS, joints that move are not installed according to the MIs. Get a grip.

for example if you fit a part in a boiler and both ends have a rubber o ring you'll be pretty much guaranteed to have to replace the o ring the other end, you don't have to resolder other fittings if working on a fitting further down.

Can you quote a realistic example that doesn't involve a boiler?

 

[redpis]

Theres a clever place to put it. Dont worry if you get back siphonage from out side tap coz it wont reach the stop tap, but might find its way on the pipe before the failed JG plastic fitting.

If you do not know your water regs then shut the f**k up, amateur.

I said ISO VALVE not stop cock, the feed to the outside tap is branched off the rising main, the pipe you THINK is the feed is actualy supplying an additional outside tap.

Thanks for being a true professional you do your trade a major credit

 

[redpis]

Also, you let it freeze.

Is it normal practice to lag pipes under a kitchen sink that feed outside taps?

 

[Softus]

Also, you let it freeze.

Is it normal practice to lag pipes under a kitchen sink that feed outside taps?

Wot's lagging got to do with it?

 

[gremlin16]

I said ISO VALVE not stop cock, the feed to the outside tap is branched off the rising main, the pipe you THINK is the feed is actualy supplying an additional outside tap.

Why don't you identify whats what on your photo, If i'm wrong the I will apologize but cant see what pipe does what.

The one on the left (through unit) looks like it feeding an outside tap?

 

[Softus]

there are no collet covers or collet clips.

You've quoted the second half of a sentence that had a context, being a response to the OP's claimed that the installation was in accordance with the manufacturer's instructions. It clearly wasn't.

All I can see is another failed carp plastic fitting,

Given that it froze, I don't see what other possible outcome there could have been. Copper pipe would have split, so I really don't see what difference a plastic fitting has made in this situation.

 

[Softus]

No it hadn't - there are no collet covers or collet clips.

The head assembly failed.

You need to read words and understand them. If you knew any more about plumbing you'd be able to change a float valve washer.

 

[crockett]

As Softus has inferred in this thread, both copper and plastic have their place in plumbing, if installed and commisioned correctly, and not just lashed in. The biggest mistake is that DIYers are under the illusion that plastic pipe can be bent in all directions and pushed into fittings under strain, and then expect the pipework to never fail, because its plastic. This is certainly not the case. Plastic does have its benefits, but it still must be installed correctly.

 

[BigBurner]

As Softus has inferred in this thread, both copper and plastic have their place in plumbing, if installed and commisioned correctly,

Nope. You can fit a pushfit fitting correctly and 3 years later fail. Use compression on plastic. It is simple and easy to do and cheaper.

 

[Softus]

You can fit a pushfit fitting correctly and 3 years later fail.

Nope. Only you can do that, or anyone else who doesn't follow the instructions. That is the white booklet that you probably throw away.

Use compression on plastic. It is simple and easy to do and cheaper.

Nope. It isn't any cheaper. You would know that if you ever did anything apart from talk.

 

[corgiman]

As Softus has inferred in this thread, both copper and plastic have their place in plumbing, if installed and commisioned correctly,

Nope. You can fit a pushfit fitting correctly and 3 years later fail. Use compression on plastic. It is simple and easy to do and cheaper.

Sorry BB but that is misleading drivel and you know it, so stop it



come on boys lets play nice

 

[Norcon]

O rings will degrade through time due to chemical ageing. Temperature spikes and drops also reduce their lifespan.
When mechanical components are taken apart its usual to replace the O rings with new ones due too their failure or just as a precaution.
How long before wholesale failure in the UK's stock of pushfit fittings?
Or should plumbers start replacing them asap before they fail? Prevention is better than cure.
I think a domestic plumbing system is a less rigorous environment for their use IMHO so maybe they will outlast their 50 year gurantee. (or whatever it is)

 

[Softus]

O rings will degrade through time due to chemical ageing.

So too does copper. And brass. And, er, everything on the planet.

How long before wholesale failure in the UK's stock of pushfit fittings?

Why would there be "wholesale" failure, when there hasn't been "wholesale" deployment?

Or should plumbers start replacing them asap before they fail?

I dunno. Should "plumbers" start replacing all copper pipework before it corrodes or erodes? Prevention is better than cure.