Covid-19 Gambles

It is an impossible question to answer, and I'm not sure that time will provide any clarity.

I am still of the belief that the lockdown prevented a spike in cases that would have seen Nightingale hospitals deployed, and NHS performance thereby drop to a level where it, for all intents and purposes, would be described as "collapsed". This would have likely had significant effects on all of the areas you have described.
 
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It's worth noting that it's not a binary case of unvaccinated and vaccinated, there seem to be at least four categories of vaccination status at the moment.

unvaccinated
received first dose
received second dose but still waiting for the two week period
fully vaccinated

His correction says 60% of hospital admissions are unvaccinated, but says nothing about the ratios of the other categories.
 
It is an impossible question to answer, and I'm not sure that time will provide any clarity.

I am still of the belief that the lockdown prevented a spike in cases that would have seen Nightingale hospitals deployed, and NHS performance thereby drop to a level where it, for all intents and purposes, would be described as "collapsed". This would have likely had significant effects on all of the areas you have described.

it is very hard to prove either way.

lockdown sceptics will argue Covid comes in waves and cases will fall anyway and therefore lockdown measures make no difference.

It’s hard to crunch the data to identify what impact lockdown measures have because multiple measures are used simultaneously and it is pretty tricky to isolate the data.
 
I did see a chart of uptake over time split by age group. I can't find out now, but it did show a clear reduction in uptake rate. Getting pretty flat now in all age groups.
 

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it is very hard to prove either way.

lockdown sceptics will argue Covid comes in waves and cases will fall anyway and therefore lockdown measures make no difference.

It’s hard to crunch the data to identify what impact lockdown measures have because multiple measures are used simultaneously and it is pretty tricky to isolate the data.

I agree with all of that. I do think that the burden of proof must be with the lockdown proponents though. They must demonstrate efficacy and proportionality. I have seen little of the first, and none of the second.
 
, it's looking like immunity via exposure is more reliable

I believe naturally acquired immunity is not great at dealing with variants, certainly there are more cases now where people have got Covid for a 2nd time.

there is a concern that removing social distancing, there will a huge rise in people catching Covid….which creates a environment where variants are more likely to emerge.

we also don’t know how many people will suffer long Covid.
 
I agree with all of that. I do think that the burden of proof must be with the lockdown proponents though. They must demonstrate efficacy and proportionality. I have seen little of the first, and none of the second.
There has been a number of papers linked to in previous pages that demonstrate that lockdowns are one of the, if not the, most effective NPIs to curb the spread of the disease.
 
There has been a number of papers linked to in previous pages that demonstrate that lockdowns are one of the, if not the, most effective NPIs to curb the spread of the disease.
That may be so, but there are also a good number of papers which challenge this.
And nobody's yet tried to argue that lockdown is a sustainable and proportionate measure, given that they have effects far beyond suppression of a virus.

Would you, for instance, advocate lockdown for seasonal flu, or anything else? Is this the life you really want?
 
I believe naturally acquired immunity is not great at dealing with variants, certainly there are more cases now where people have got Covid for a 2nd time.

there is a concern that removing social distancing, there will a huge rise in people catching Covid….which creates a environment where variants are more likely to emerge.

we also don’t know how many people will suffer long Covid.
Well, in that case we'll be social distancing forever. Don't you think that this is seriously disproportionate? Perhaps you don't, and we'll disagree.
This won't be the last pandemic in my my lifetime. I shudder to think what will be done in the name of public health for a disease which is actually dangerous for more people.
 
That may be so, but there are also a good number of papers which challenge this.

Lots of which are flawed.

Would you, for instance, advocate lockdown for seasonal flu, or anything else? Is this the life you really want?

Or anything else? Damn right I would. Haemorrhagic fever? Lock down. Smallpox? Lockdown.

Seasonal flu? Probably not. Virulent non seasonal flu? Depends on severity.

Do I enjoy lockdown? Not particularly.
 
Lots of which are flawed.



Or anything else? Damn right I would. Haemorrhagic fever? Lock down. Smallpox? Lockdown.

Seasonal flu? Probably not. Virulent non seasonal flu? Depends on severity.

Do I enjoy lockdown? Not particularly.
Wow. Have you even considered the inevitable and grave damage of what you're advocating?
 
Now, I'll preface my response with things like "I didn't fully follow the maths" .... One piece looked at what proportion fo the population needed to be be vaccinated and how this varied with vaccine effectiveness and R0. It was ... rather sobering :eek:
The maths couldn't be a lot simpler. In the absence of any measures (e..g. NPIs) to reduce transmission, the Herd Immunity Threshold (HIT - the proportion of population who need to be {Totally} immune) is simply:

1 - (1 /R0)
However, as I recently said, that gives the proportion of the population who have to be totally immune to control the disease. In the real world, in which neither natural disease nor vaccine will give everyone total immunity, the threshold proportion of (not all totally immune) people will be greater than that obtained by the above calculation - roughly pro-rata to the average degree of true immunity within the individuals concerned.
Again, it's only vague recollection, but a small change in a variable made the difference between needing something like 95% to needing 98% (yes, all but 2% of the population) to be vaccinated in order to achieve herd immunity and have a stable or declining infection rate. Put another way, 80% vaccination wasn't going to cut it for the numbers they used.
I obviously don't know what variable you had in mind but, as above there are essentially two main ones - R0 and the actual average degree of immunity in those described as 'immune'.

To give you a feel, the graph below shows the proportion of totally immune people in the population required for 'herd immunity' with the variants of interest to us, using approximate R0 values for each of them. Starting with the 'original' virus as seen in Europe, R0 was about 3.0, which rose to about 4.5 with the alpha variant and now to about 6.0 with delta. The corresponding HITs (of totally immune people) correspondingly rose from a fairly 'comfortable' ~66% with the original virus, through about 78% with alpha to an 'uncomfortable ~83% with delta.

So, as I see it, even if everyone vaccinated became 'totally immune', and given that not all 'offers of vaccination' are accepted, it would seem that there would be no prospect of reaching that 83% threshold by vaccination alone unless we at least offered vaccine to most/all of the under-18s. In reality, since it obviously is not the case that all of the vaccinated people become 'totally immune', the required number of vaccinated people would presumably be appreciably above 83%, and probably unattainable by vaccination alone, even if vaccine we offered to all under-18s. It therefore seems to be that we are probably going to need an appreciable 'top up' from natural immunity (following infection) in order to achieve 'herd immunity'. However, that's all just my view and others may disagree.

upload_2021-7-20_1-31-31.png


Kind Regards, John
 
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Edit: I'm not now even certain that his correction was correct. And I'm weary of having to check govt statements and stats. I assume now by default that they are dishonest or obfuscated.
Whoops. Maybe it's my ageing ears, but I was pretty certain that he said 16%, and not 60%, even if he has now revised the 60% to 40% (or less, because his correction refers to 60% 'unvaccinated' people, leaving it unclear as to where single-dosers fit into his {corrected} figures!).

However, the other point he made is, as I said, very valid in that the proportion of hospitalised patients who are fully vaccinated is substantially an indicator of what proportion of the population are fully vaccinated - and that that proportion would inevitably approach 100% if the porporino of the population who were fully vaccinated approached 100%.
And I'm weary of having to check govt statements and stats. I assume now by default that they are dishonest or obfuscated.
Whilst their are plenty of government statements and stats that can be criticised, I think that's rather unfair. It was an spontaneous off-the-cuff answer to a question, not a 'government statement'.

Kind Regards, John
 
I've enjoyed reading the vaccine efficacy discussion. It's not something I've done much independent research into, so thanks to those who have. .... As might be expected in this 'parish', there's been a lot of detailed discussion on narrow topics, but nobody's really responded to my question on whether lockdown will be, in the final analysis, successful or proportionate or damaging and disproportionate.
Well, for a start, although that is 'your question', we're never going to be able to do more than speculate about the answer (presumably on the basis of, very fallible, modelling and suchlike) since there is no way that we can 're-run history' and obtain some actual facts and figures about what 'might have been' with different strategy/management. That is probably at least one reason why there has been "a lot of detailed discussion on narrow topics", since they have at least been topics in relation to which there is data, and scope for scientific discussion, rather than speculation.

However, even if one does try to speculate about the answer to your question, in some senses you are the only person who could answer it, since "successful or proportionate" and "damaging and disproportionate" are very subjective, and potentially emotive, issues about which there will be a very wide spectrum of (often strongly held) views.
My view is that lockdown has turned a public health crisis into not only a public health crisis, but an economic crisis, an education crisis, a mental health crisis, a democratic crisis, a legal crisis and a moral crisis. .... We cannot judge lockdown on sole criterion of suppressing Covid, even if it can be demonstrated that it had some limited effect (which is very much contested). .... I've always thought it disproportionate, and I suspect we will learn just how much over the years to come.
As I've said before, you're far from alone in that view, and are essentially reflecting the view of my daughter and her colleagues, at least in terms of how they feel history will look back on the world (not just the UK!) and ask "what on earth were they thinking back then".

However, as above, your suspicion that, in the years to come, "we" will "learn how disproportionate our responses has been" is seriously complicated by the faction that that "we" consists of millions of individuals with widely varying opinions as to what constitutes "disproportionate". The very word implies a numerical comparison of some sort, and at least some of that comparison would inevitably end up with the always-very-difficult (and controversial, and disturbing, and very emotive) issue of trying to put monetary values on human lives (or deaths).

You're also asking us to speculate about the answer to your question in a very 'one-sided' fashion, since we don't know what you are postulating as an alternative - I think you need to tell us what you feel would have been a "successful and proportionate" approach that would not have turned the public health crisis into all the other types of crisis you mention.

If the population (also known as 'the electorate' :) ) had been prepared to accept/tolerate it, we could have minimised the impact on the economy, on non-Covid aspects of healthcare (including mental heath), on education etc. etc. by basically 'ignoring' the virus. Absolutely no NPIs and everyone told to carry on working and behaving 'as normal' and with a policy of not offering any NHS treatment to people with Covid infection (who would have to muddle along, and survive or die, at home with minimal, if any healthcare support) - maybe a tiny number could be treated without detrimentally impacting on other NHS activities, but since they were already over-stretched before the pandemic, that would probably be a trivial number.

The economy, NHS, education etc. will then have carried on largely unscathed (so no 'disproportionate' effects on any of them), whilst maybe 500,000 - 1,000,000 people died, probably pretty quickly (probably within a small number of months). Is that the sort of 'proportionate' approach and outcome you are considering (i.e. you feel that such a number of deaths is 'proportionate' to the beneficial effects on economy, healthcare, education etc.) - or did you have some other (workable) approach/strategy in mind?

Finally, I suppose I should declare a sort-of 'vested interest', albeit in behalf of others. A large number of my friends, colleagues and contacts have been working "at the NHS coalface" for nearly 18 months and, even when the last Covid wave subsided as a result of the 'lockdown', they have been under tremendous pressure to address the 'backlog' of non-Covid healthcare. They are exhausted, highly stressed, frustrated, disillusioned and, in many cases, frightened. A good few have suffered mental health problems as a result of the situation and at least one has tried (thankfully unsuccessfully) to take her own life because of the stress etc. - and, for what it's worth, I've lost three colleagues to Covid.

If we allow the number of cases (inevitably followed by everything else) to soar, these NHS staff are going to be the first people to suffer directly. Although Covid hospitalisations are currently low (in comparison with previous waves), thanks to the vaccine, they have been rising quite rapidly (even before today's 'relaxations') and are already at about 15% of their peak in January. If that rise continues (or, as one might expect, worsens) I would suspect that if it gets to anywhere near even 50% of the January peak, that may well represent 'the last straw' for a good few of them (many of whom are 'about to crack'). I realise that front-line NHS workers are only a small proportion of the country's population, but I don't think that is an acceptable reason for ignoring their plight as an 'acceptable price to be paid' for some 'greater good', particularly when so many of them are my friends!!

Kind Regards, John
 
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It's worth noting that it's not a binary case of unvaccinated and vaccinated, there seem to be at least four categories of vaccination status at the moment. ... unvaccinated ... received first dose ... received second dose but still waiting for the two week period ... fully vaccinated .... His correction says 60% of hospital admissions are unvaccinated, but says nothing about the ratios of the other categories.
Indeed so - as I implied above, in comparison with the initial statement (which related to 'double vaccinated', we don't even know what the correction means!

However, as I've said, figures telling us what proportion of hospitalised patients fall into each of those categories is not, in itself, particularly helpful, since it will be at least partially simply reflecting the proportion of those categories in the population.

If we want to look usefully at these different categories, what we would need to do is convert those numbers (of proportions of hospitalised patients in each of those vaccination categories) into the proportion of each of those categories (in the population) who are hospitalised with Covid infection.

However, having said that, I think it's probably a bit moot, since, despite what you say at the start, the issue of interest (in the context being discussed) essentially is binary. We know that a single dose of vaccine gives relatively little protection against the delta variant, and also that this situation probably doesn't improve until a couple of weeks after the second dose - so we should not be surprised if people in those categories end up hospitalised. Hence, all that really matters is the binary "fully vaccinated (i.e ≥2 weeks after 2nd dose) - Yes/No?".

Kind Regards, John
 

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