CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM

[hermes]

One other thing I would pick up on is where markie said 'all this crime against kids seems to be turning the public in favour of the death penalty'. Obviously these are evil acts, but again I think I saw a report that said that the actual number of such offences has remained pretty constant throughout the last century - It is just the reporting that leads people to believe that there has been some vast upsurge in child abduction and that we shouldn't let our children out of our sight anymore, but stick them in the bedroom with the Playstation where they'll be safe.

Yes I have also heard this. If the media paid as much attention each time a single child is knocked down on the road then road safety would change in a big way. The chances of your child suffering at the hands of an unknown adult are miniscule but the perception is otherwise in some people's eyes.
I'm sure that what Masona says about the power of the media is true. Markie's point about the public turning in favour of the death penalty doesn't ring a bell with me. I haven't spoken to anyone or read anything that would suggest this, but I'm sure if I read certain newspapers then that would change.

 

[masona]

Markie's point about the public turning in favour of the death penalty doesn't ring a bell with me. I haven't spoken to anyone or read anything that would suggest this, but I'm sure if I read certain newspapers then that would change.

That because The Sun newspaper want people to read it that way, again twisting the fact around, amazing how powerful the media are and what people will believe

 

[bigfangdog]

Never mind the sun newspaper, whoever I speak to is in favour of the death sentence for child killers, who isn't?

 

[johnny_t]

Can't help feeling we may have already covered that....

 

[markie]

bigfangdog there's a lot ( not ) in favour of the D,P on this forum, and the one's that are get slated, for wanting it.

 

[Moz]

johnny_t
covered it..lol
its been done to death ....Ooops

 

[bigfangdog]

Can't help feeling we may have already covered that....

Don't you like subjects hanging around then johnny?

 

[Softus]

Don't you like subjects hanging around then johnny?

FFS bfg, everyone in both camps is sick of the subject.

Search the forum. And in case you can't search, click here.

 

[Moz]

SAME AS OTHERS BOMB .. tic toc .... the least sayinging how they feel about the get on with it ...

 

[Softus]

b-a-s, sorry for the late reply to this one, but I didn't notice it until now.

Two points:

1) My position, that the death penalty is morally wrong is not one that can be argued in order to change minds. There are no statistics to quote, no evidence to show. All there is is a belief that killing is wrong, and that wanting to kill is wrong, and that a society that kills is less civilised than one that does not.

I don't agree. The argument against the DP is also a logical one, viz:

1a) If it is wrong to kill an innocent person, then it is wrong to kill a murderer, because the chain of murder is then never-ending.

1b) It is not possible to convict a murderer beyond all doubt, merely beyond reasonable doubt. The startlingness, and quantity, of unsafe convictions under the current criminal justice system is sufficient evidence that the system is not yet mature enough for the remaining doubt to be sufficiently small and/or infrequent. For this reason, it is only sensible to keep the felons alive for as long as possible, to allow enough time (i.e. until they die) for new evidence to emerge.

2) There are 27054 registered users on this site. Imagine if 1 of them posted saying they were in favour of the death penalty, and 27053 replied with posts of utter condemnation. Do you think they'd get the message?

That is the message I want them to get. I'm sorry it's only me who's sending that message - I wish a few more people who agree with my position would be equally as virulent in their criticism of those who support the death penalty.

Well, whilst I do agree that the effectiveness of the message is proportional to the number of people conveying it, the size of the consensus is a different attribute to the content of the message and the manner of conveying it.

This is not some abstract debate for me in which I want to score debating points or win arguments - I want the DP supporters to be shouted at.

It's the shouting that's the problem - in my experience it never, ever, changes anyone's mind; instead it makes them more resolute in their own opinion.

I want them to feel loathed.

So do I. So I can't help but wonder why it manifests itself in a different way.

I don't know if Masona is still reading this topic, but I'd be very interested to know why he changed his mind, for the same reason that AIDS survivors are pawed over by scientists to find out the miraculous cause of their rare gift.

 

[masona]

I don't know if Masona is still reading this topic, but I'd be very interested to know why he changed his mind

Because I feel it would put me on the same level as the murderer if they are put to death penalty which isn't in my nature to kill people, I couldn't do it, so the fairest way is to lock them up for life by throwing away the keys. The problem is that people want the death penalty because maybe there's no justice for the crime and feel anger which I did at the time, BAS has made me think again.

 

[Softus]

masona, I understand. Thank you.

 

[paulbrown]

Softus said,

1b) It is not possible to convict a murderer beyond all doubt, merely beyond reasonable doubt.

Personally I can see this issue from both sides, so am not commenting on the DP itself.

I notice your quote above refers to the convicton aspect only. I would imagine that if any future government was minded to change the law this wording would only need to be changed accordingly.

I doubt this would ever actually happen though.

 

[Softus]

What the hell are you talking about? Is this a serious point, or are you being deliberately obtuse?

 

[markie]

Softus what about a D,N,A conviction ? if some one who's d,n,a match's up with a little girl who's been you know what, then murdered. then there is no argument if he/she did or not do it. yes or no ? if you state yes, then why do you write ( it is not possible to convict a murder beyond all doubt ) ps i know what your responce is going to be