Am I misreading this?
I don't think anyone would use a 20 amp switch on a ring circuit WITHOUT some form of fusing down somewhere to 13 amp or less
Dimplex Quantum QM150 Storage Heater Off-Peak Electric Supply Wiring Help
Am I misreading this?
I don't think anyone would use a 20 amp switch on a ring circuit WITHOUT some form of fusing down somewhere to 13 amp or less
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The night store side is 3024-3300W the daytime boost is 1242-1380W as listed in the installation manual.
The fused spurs will be ok for the off peak if your other heaters are smaller such as the QM70,QM100 or QM125.
The fused spurs will be ok for the off peak if your other heaters are smaller such as the QM70,QM100 or QM125.
No they must stay as fused spurs with a 13A fuse.
D
Doggit
It looks like I have to apologise to everyone. I should have gone to dimplex's site, but the site I picked up only gave it as 1500w and 1300w boost. So it's possible that the first timer failed due to being overloaded, but just stopped working, and the second one was crap, and melted.
In my defence, in the past, Dimplex used to designate their model numbers on the input rating, not the output.
You need a new cable for the 3300w night storage side run back to the night storage consumer unit, and a 20A switched spur run from the local ring main to deal with the boost circuit.
In my defence, in the past, Dimplex used to designate their model numbers on the input rating, not the output.
You need a new cable for the 3300w night storage side run back to the night storage consumer unit, and a 20A switched spur run from the local ring main to deal with the boost circuit.
You are correct it must be a 13A fused spur for the boost.
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D
Doggit
A 20A DP switch is capable of running 20 amps through it, and will disconnect both the live and the neutral supplies, but you'll only ever get a 13amp fuse as a maximum to go in it.
?? when does s a 20A double pole switch have a 13A fuse?!?
But who would run any appliance off a ring circuit without inserting a 13 amp or less fuse?
A 20 amp DP switch does not accomodate a fuse, unless you fit a seperate unit.
Get real, Doggit!
D
Doggit
Sorry guys,not concentrating tonight. Just realised how it came across.
Hi All,
Many thanks for all of your help so far. I thought I would post an update considering the installer returned on Tuesday.
p.s. I appreciate that some of the points in my update below may already mention things that you have all kindly advised about already, so I apologise in advance for repetition. I am starting to understand the basics, however am struggling with the exam question of “is it safe or not”?
Since the problem occurred, I have been in frequent email contact with the installer. The installer has also reached out to Dimplex, who have said it would be fine to install the off-peak element of the heater onto a ring main with the usual 32A breaker using a 20A double pole isolator before a 16A timer, assuming that loading, installation, grouping, Volt drop etc was in accordance with BS7671.
The installer therefore came round on Tuesday, and plugged this device into the plug socket which the heater was previously plugged into (before the plug melted). He took a reading of the impedance and explained that the low value means that installing the heater onto the ring main would be fine. Does this satisfy the tests that Dimplex mentioned?
He then proceeded to change the plug socket to a 20A DP switch, and connected it to a 16A timer which was installed beside it. This timer was then connected to the off-peak element.
We left the timer on an “always on” state temporarily to test that everything was working as expected, however after a few hours I noticed that the heater was blowing out cold air. All of the lights were on (on the 20A DP switch, and the timer), indicating that both new outlets were working, therefore I assumed that there was a lose/wrong connection between the timer and the heater. I switched the 20A switch off as I wasn’t going to be at home for a few days.
As you can imagine I was rather frustrated, thus I wrote a rather furious email back to the installer and demanded that these issues are rectified immediately. I also asked for written confirmation that the way in which the heater had been installed was safe and abiding to regulations. I therefore wanted them to accept liability if anything went wrong.
The installer replied and said that they would come and fit a dedicated wire from the fuse box to the room instead, all at their cost. They also said that they would hide the wire in trunking.
Fast forward to this weekend, when I turned the switch and timer back on and also factory reset the heater (I thought that if it was a charge problem, considering that the Quantum detects when it needs to charge and remembers when the electricity to the off-peak element is available and not, the factory reset would do the trick). I was surprised that the heater now worked as expected.
So now I am a bit unsure as to what to do. They have drilled a hole in the plasterboard to install the timer next to the 20A DP switch, so I don’t want a hole left there. At the same time, if there is any risk of danger in using the setup I currently have, I would rather them fit the dedicated wire and live with the annoyance of having a surface mounted wire extending from one end of the flat to the other, on my currently neat, clean and newly painted walls.
Advice would be much appreciated - they are scheduled to return to my flat next Saturday (12th March).
Many thanks in advance!
P.
Many thanks for all of your help so far. I thought I would post an update considering the installer returned on Tuesday.
p.s. I appreciate that some of the points in my update below may already mention things that you have all kindly advised about already, so I apologise in advance for repetition. I am starting to understand the basics, however am struggling with the exam question of “is it safe or not”?
Since the problem occurred, I have been in frequent email contact with the installer. The installer has also reached out to Dimplex, who have said it would be fine to install the off-peak element of the heater onto a ring main with the usual 32A breaker using a 20A double pole isolator before a 16A timer, assuming that loading, installation, grouping, Volt drop etc was in accordance with BS7671.
The installer therefore came round on Tuesday, and plugged this device into the plug socket which the heater was previously plugged into (before the plug melted). He took a reading of the impedance and explained that the low value means that installing the heater onto the ring main would be fine. Does this satisfy the tests that Dimplex mentioned?
He then proceeded to change the plug socket to a 20A DP switch, and connected it to a 16A timer which was installed beside it. This timer was then connected to the off-peak element.
We left the timer on an “always on” state temporarily to test that everything was working as expected, however after a few hours I noticed that the heater was blowing out cold air. All of the lights were on (on the 20A DP switch, and the timer), indicating that both new outlets were working, therefore I assumed that there was a lose/wrong connection between the timer and the heater. I switched the 20A switch off as I wasn’t going to be at home for a few days.
As you can imagine I was rather frustrated, thus I wrote a rather furious email back to the installer and demanded that these issues are rectified immediately. I also asked for written confirmation that the way in which the heater had been installed was safe and abiding to regulations. I therefore wanted them to accept liability if anything went wrong.
The installer replied and said that they would come and fit a dedicated wire from the fuse box to the room instead, all at their cost. They also said that they would hide the wire in trunking.
Fast forward to this weekend, when I turned the switch and timer back on and also factory reset the heater (I thought that if it was a charge problem, considering that the Quantum detects when it needs to charge and remembers when the electricity to the off-peak element is available and not, the factory reset would do the trick). I was surprised that the heater now worked as expected.
So now I am a bit unsure as to what to do. They have drilled a hole in the plasterboard to install the timer next to the 20A DP switch, so I don’t want a hole left there. At the same time, if there is any risk of danger in using the setup I currently have, I would rather them fit the dedicated wire and live with the annoyance of having a surface mounted wire extending from one end of the flat to the other, on my currently neat, clean and newly painted walls.
Advice would be much appreciated - they are scheduled to return to my flat next Saturday (12th March).
Many thanks in advance!
P.
D
Doggit
You've been messed around more than enough. Keep quiet about it working (as it may well go wrong again) and just let them install the dedicated circuit.
I think you should ask them to pay the bill for another company to do it as it sounds like they are incompetent and i would not trust them to install a new circuit.
I may be wrong but from what i read your 13 amp socket should not have been replaced with a 20 amp switch, the timer and heater are now protected only by a 32 amp mcb
another option is to go back similar to the existing idea of a plug and socket and timer and just use a new storage heater rated less than 3kw, replace the socket (currentlly a 20a switch) with a switched fused connection unit and fit a suitable timer over the plasterboard hole or reuse the timer they fitted
It may be possible to remove or disconnect one element in the heater you already have to reduce the load to under 3kw
I may be wrong but from what i read your 13 amp socket should not have been replaced with a 20 amp switch, the timer and heater are now protected only by a 32 amp mcb
another option is to go back similar to the existing idea of a plug and socket and timer and just use a new storage heater rated less than 3kw, replace the socket (currentlly a 20a switch) with a switched fused connection unit and fit a suitable timer over the plasterboard hole or reuse the timer they fitted
It may be possible to remove or disconnect one element in the heater you already have to reduce the load to under 3kw
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I can't really add much more, I'm speechless someone would even consider doing that in their own home, let alone a paying clients.
This^
There should be no need to modify the appliance. The OP has asked an installer to install it for them in exchange for money. If the appliance was not appropriate, or was unsuitable for installation in this property they should have refused to install it, and should have asked the OP to replace it with something suitable.
Or, they should have explained the appliance can only be fitted if a new circuit is installed, connected right back to the off peak consumer unit.
This isn't an unforeseen problem, this is connecting a continuous load of greater than 13A to a 13A fuse, and connecting an appliance designed for connection to an off peak supply, to a peak circuit. It's not going to end well. Removing the fuse by fitting a 20A DP switch on a ring final is not the right course of action.
Hello all - hope everybody is having a grand weekend so far!
So I've just had the installers leave (2 of them this time, one who was obviously much more competent and experienced that the chap who attempted to install the heater twice with not much luck).
What they have now suggested, is that the heater in the bedroom is changed from the QM150 (3.3kW) to a QM125 (2.7kW) - obviously at their cost.
The more experienced installer did point out to his colleague that the 20A DP switch should not have been connected to the ring main, as the ring main was protected by a 32A MCB (and therefore the heater was not protected to 16A as it should be).
He said that considering that the current draw for the QM125 would be less than 13A, it would be appropriate, safe and abiding to regulations (he said that electrical testing would pass, should I require this in the future for renting out etc.), for the off-peak element to be connected to a 13A fused spur (connect to the ring main), via a 16A rated timer.
How does this sound to you guys? If you feel that there still needs to be a dedicated circuit, I'll give these guys a call back on Monday and tell them I am not interested in their suggestion.
Many thanks again for all of you that have helped out with this over the past few weeks. It's so impressive and touching that so many people are willing to take a little bit of time out of their day to help me out with this.
Although I am starting to understand the basics, it really does help having you all support my efforts to ensure that the installation is carried out in the correct manner, ultimately leading to me and my family's safety!
Kindest regards,
P
So I've just had the installers leave (2 of them this time, one who was obviously much more competent and experienced that the chap who attempted to install the heater twice with not much luck).
What they have now suggested, is that the heater in the bedroom is changed from the QM150 (3.3kW) to a QM125 (2.7kW) - obviously at their cost.
The more experienced installer did point out to his colleague that the 20A DP switch should not have been connected to the ring main, as the ring main was protected by a 32A MCB (and therefore the heater was not protected to 16A as it should be).
He said that considering that the current draw for the QM125 would be less than 13A, it would be appropriate, safe and abiding to regulations (he said that electrical testing would pass, should I require this in the future for renting out etc.), for the off-peak element to be connected to a 13A fused spur (connect to the ring main), via a 16A rated timer.
How does this sound to you guys? If you feel that there still needs to be a dedicated circuit, I'll give these guys a call back on Monday and tell them I am not interested in their suggestion.
Many thanks again for all of you that have helped out with this over the past few weeks. It's so impressive and touching that so many people are willing to take a little bit of time out of their day to help me out with this.
Although I am starting to understand the basics, it really does help having you all support my efforts to ensure that the installation is carried out in the correct manner, ultimately leading to me and my family's safety!
Kindest regards,
P
Sounds much improved, if you don't want a new circuit added.
Storage heaters aren't recommended on fused spurs, but the load is below 3 kW.
Sounds like a reasonable compromise.
Not ideal, and probably against everything in the manufacturers instructions, and no doubt someone here will find further issues - but it's much better than before.
That first chap was an idiot.
Storage heaters aren't recommended on fused spurs, but the load is below 3 kW.
Sounds like a reasonable compromise.
Not ideal, and probably against everything in the manufacturers instructions, and no doubt someone here will find further issues - but it's much better than before.
That first chap was an idiot.
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