DNO guys didn't fit earth when they came to replace cutout

[mfarrow]

Hi

Went round to elderly neighbour's house on Saturday to fix a snapped lawnmower cable. Whilst in his garage, I noticed that the cutout had tape around it and there was no reliable source of earthing (gas and water bonding only). Zs from socket under CU was 6 ohms. No RCDs.

I live next door and have a TN-S, so I called up DNO who said they'd turn up in 4 hours, and the operator repeated the notes he put on the call to say there was no earth and broken cut-out.

3 hours later, 2 vans arrived outside and hacked away for half an hour or so. I was plastering and couldn't really stop to check what was going on.

Today, I called round to see new shiny cutout but no earth, just a bit of exposed lead sheath. The guy from the DNO had told my elderly neighbour that the earth wasn't needed and had pointed at the two earth connections to the pipes. Obviously my elderly neighbour believes him and now thinks I'm asking them for things which aren't necessary, but is thankfully letting me pursue this with them.

Makes my blood boil.

 

[RF Lighting]

Sounds like a TT supply.

 

[JohnW2]

Today, I called round to see new shiny cutout but no earth, just a bit of exposed lead sheath. The guy from the DNO had told my elderly neighbour that the earth wasn't needed and had pointed at the two earth connections to the pipes.

Good grief! I reckon you need to send the guy around to westie, and warn westie to make sure that the biscuits and coffee are well hidden before the 'talk'!

Kind Regards, John

 

[JohnW2]

Sounds like a TT supply.

Possibly (although perhaps a bit odd next door to someone with TN-S) but, even so, that's surely no excuse for suggesting that 'connections' to service pipes meant that 'no earth was needed'?!

Kind Regards, John

 

[mfarrow]

Sounds like a TT supply.

I live next door and have TN-S. That's not the point though, they were asked to fit one and even mentioned it to my neighbour when they arrived, but proceeded not to bother because they saw the bonding, and said all was good. I want to know what qualifies them to make that decision.

 

[RF Lighting]

I live next door and have TN-S.

And?

That's not the point though, they were asked to fit one and even mentioned it to my neighbour when they arrived,

Maybe it's a TT supply so they can't?

but proceeded not to bother because they saw the bonding, and said all was good.

Or maybe because it's a TT supply and they are NOT responsible for supplying an earth, they didn't

I want to know what qualifies them to make that decision.

Their line manager, their qualifications, the EAW regulations and the ESQCR I'd imagine.

 

[mfarrow]

I live next door and have TN-S.

And?

It's a sure sign the houses are registered to have TN-S. They're identical, built at the same time and are 1m apart.

That's not the point though, they were asked to fit one and even mentioned it to my neighbour when they arrived,

Maybe it's a TT supply so they can't?

Why not say that then?

but proceeded not to bother because they saw the bonding, and said all was good.

Or maybe because it's a TT supply and they are NOT responsible for supplying an earth, they didn't

That's not the words they used. They left leaving my neighbour with the impression that he has a good earth.

I want to know what qualifies them to make that decision.

Their line manager, their qualifications, the EAW regulations and the ESQCR I'd imagine.

I know what would happen if I went around in my job iterating reassuring statements to naive pensioners, when I didn't know them to be true.

 

[JohnW2]

Or maybe because it's a TT supply and they are NOT responsible for supplying an earth, they didn't.

Only if the OP was incorrect. We were told that they said that an earth was not needed because service pipes were bonded, not that it was needed but was not their responsibility to provide it. Maybe we were misled?

Kind Regards, John

 

[RF Lighting]

Maybe the neighbour got mixed up. You know what old people are like.

 

[mfarrow]

I can understand old people getting mixed up, but when we went into the garage and I asked him, he pointed at the bonds the guys showed him straight away. He was very assured by what they had said, to the point where I think if I told him his installation is dangerous and he'll need to pay an electrician to fix it (if it turns out to be TT) then I don't think he'll believe me.

 

[westie101]

ESQCR

Basically
DNOs must provide an earth to all new properties

DNOs should maintain existing earthing terminals (which doesn't mean that we must retrospectively increase main earth cables in line with the 17th edition)

DNOS are not required to provide an earthing terminal to any existing properties in any circumstances. Some do in parts of their regions but mainly by local decisions that can be overruled from above (if they find out)

OK the jointing team's knowledge of earthing was wrong, but they are not required to have that knowledge in the first place

 

[JohnW2]

DNOS are not required to provide an earthing terminal to any existing properties in any circumstances. Some do in parts of their regions but mainly by local decisions that can be overruled from above (if they find out)

Does that mean that the oft-seen assertion that "if a DNO has previously supplied an earth, they have a duty to 'maintain' it" is just a myth?

OK the jointing team's knowledge of earthing was wrong, but they are not required to have that knowledge in the first place

Would it not be reasonable to expect them to have at least enough knowledge to understand that it would be unsafe for them to connect a service to an installtion which should be TT, but actually had no earth other than service pipes?

Kind Regards, John

 

[westie101]

Does that mean that the oft-seen assertion that "if a DNO has previously supplied an earth, they have a duty to 'maintain' it" is just a myth?

Please read my line above the one you quoted which had already answered that!
The word "provide" being used as in the first part of the answer, if there isn't one there we do not need to provide one.

Would it not be reasonable to expect them to have at least enough knowledge to understand that it would be unsafe for them to connect a service to an installtion which should be TT, but actually had no earth other than service pipes?

It's not required of them, some of the better ones might or ask advice.
No part of their training covers installations

 

[JohnW2]

Please read my line above the one you quoted which had already answered that!

Oh, my apologies - goodness knows how I missed that! In the context of this thread, isn't it very likely than the ('1 metre away') neighbour of a property with a TN-S supply will, at least 'previously', have been provided with a TN-S earth terminal, which the DNO has a duty to maintain?

It's not required of them, some of the better ones might or ask advice. No part of their training covers installations

Are they given no training at all in relation to features of an installation which would render it dangerous for them to connect a service to it?

Kind Regards, John

 

[westie101]

Are they given no training at all in relation to features of an installation which would render it dangerous for them to connect a service to it

Not that I'm aware of. In part it is because they do not know about bonding either so if an earth was provided they could not connect it without checking the bonding!

In the context of this thread, isn't it very likely than the ('1 metre away') neighbour of a property with a TN-S supply will, at least 'previously', have been provided with a TN-S earth terminal, which the DNO has a duty to maintain?

It's quite possible that there is not a terminal, (bear in mind that generally with lead sheathed cables it would have been a sweated connection so obvious) particularly without knowing more detail. We have a number of estates where there is a master service using an SNE cable, with a loop to next door using a 2 core VIR cable.
So there is an earth in one but not the other

There are other estates that have an SNE service to all properties but there have never been earths provided! In some cases the design with a steel conduit around the cable right up to the cut-out prevents us even supplying one anyway.