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Do Black Holes really Exist?
- Thread starter Mikefromlondon
- Start date
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E
EddieM
E
EddieM
You cannot do arithmetic with infinity as for instance :-
1/0 = infinity
2/0 = infinity
Therefore 1 = 2 which is clearly nonsense.
The proper way of expressing this is :-
1/0 = NaN
2/0 = NaN
Therefore no conclusion can be drawn.
1/0 = infinity
2/0 = infinity
Therefore 1 = 2 which is clearly nonsense.
The proper way of expressing this is :-
1/0 = NaN
2/0 = NaN
Therefore no conclusion can be drawn.
Grahams number isn't infinite though, just very big with nobs on.
I read once that the last digits are actually known, and doing a quick google the last ten are 2464195387.
No one knows what the first digits are.
I read once that the last digits are actually known, and doing a quick google the last ten are 2464195387.
No one knows what the first digits are.
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So to return the question I had about such numbers as Graham's it makes one wonder what it means to be so big that it cannot be written down in the measurable universe. Indeed, is it the the first one or are there "smaller" ones.
What's odd is that it may well happen that numbers adjacent to it might slip back into writable form.
What's odd is that it may well happen that numbers adjacent to it might slip back into writable form.
A number so big that no one could begin to visualise or conceptualise it is just an abstract concept I'd have thought
just kiddin
just kiddin There's definitely smaller ones, when I said to mike about making the digits the size of an atom I was simplifying it.
I believe this number is too big to be written down if all of the digits were the size of the planck length.
I do know what you mean though, at what point does the number become too big, no one is ever going to know, so maybe it is gods telephone number.
I believe this number is too big to be written down if all of the digits were the size of the planck length.
I do know what you mean though, at what point does the number become too big, no one is ever going to know, so maybe it is gods telephone number.
Despair not, we are right on track, and black hole is the right title for this phenomenally mental number of Graham=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XTeJ64KD5cg
But who knows, exactly how many atoms there are in our universe, I believe if every atom was joined with a straight line to all other atoms, as in my example of town centres connected with each other via direct motorway links, then I thin, it may exceed Graham's number, may be may be not, who knows? but sure you can work it out mathematically and the number won't be infinity. Since there must be exact number of atoms at any given moment in universe
There are two formulas to achieve this number, there may be more methods, but two i worked out are thus;
Let us take my example of 32 towns (represents 32 atoms) and each of these towns are linked to all other towns by a direct Motorway so I asked how many motorways would be needed to interconnect all towns with a direct route, the answer was 496, here is how it was arrived at using two different methods
Method one
1.Square the number of towns (or atoms in the universe) 32x32=1024
2. Minus the original number form the above squared number, so 1024-32 =992
3. Divide the above number by 2 , so 992/2 =496
2nd method
1. take the first number, and Minus 1 from it , so 32-1 =31
2. Multiply the above answer by half of above answer so = 31 x 15.5=480.5
3. Add the halved number (15.5 ) to above number to get the exact answer so 480.5+15.5 = 496
Another interesting thing I worked out but possibly only applies to tens
so for a 10 atoms total number of independent connections would be 45
for 100 =4950 (Note we have a 9 & a 0 )
for 1000=499500 (Note this has an extra 9 and an extra zero at the end!
so for 10,000 =49,995,000
this from this pattern or behaviour, we could work out what it would be for numbers exceeding trillions as most normal calculators won't handle large numbers, unless you have a scientific calculator
so if i may carry on a bit
100,000 =4,999,950,000 ( note it has same number of 9s and same number of zeros with 5 in the middle and 4 at the beginning.)
1,000,000=499,999,500,000 (5x9s & 5x0s)
10,000,000 =49,999,995,000,000
100,000,000 = 4,999,999,950,000,000
1,000,000,000=4,999,999,999,950,000,000,000
So I am not sure if this pattern continues or starts to expand, but notice the number of 9s and 0s at the end is 1 less than the number of zeros in front of the 1 on the left.
so we may jump to this figure now just to see;
1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 (1 with 60 zeros) or ( 1x10 to power of 59)
The answer would be 4,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,995,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000. (59x 9s and 59x0 )
So yes, this may not be as big a number as Graham's Number as I have hardly managed to fill this screen so whereas graham's number won't fit inside our Universe!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XTeJ64KD5cg
But who knows, exactly how many atoms there are in our universe, I believe if every atom was joined with a straight line to all other atoms, as in my example of town centres connected with each other via direct motorway links, then I thin, it may exceed Graham's number, may be may be not, who knows? but sure you can work it out mathematically and the number won't be infinity. Since there must be exact number of atoms at any given moment in universe
There are two formulas to achieve this number, there may be more methods, but two i worked out are thus;
Let us take my example of 32 towns (represents 32 atoms) and each of these towns are linked to all other towns by a direct Motorway so I asked how many motorways would be needed to interconnect all towns with a direct route, the answer was 496, here is how it was arrived at using two different methods
Method one
1.Square the number of towns (or atoms in the universe) 32x32=1024
2. Minus the original number form the above squared number, so 1024-32 =992
3. Divide the above number by 2 , so 992/2 =496
2nd method
1. take the first number, and Minus 1 from it , so 32-1 =31
2. Multiply the above answer by half of above answer so = 31 x 15.5=480.5
3. Add the halved number (15.5 ) to above number to get the exact answer so 480.5+15.5 = 496
Another interesting thing I worked out but possibly only applies to tens
so for a 10 atoms total number of independent connections would be 45
for 100 =4950 (Note we have a 9 & a 0 )
for 1000=499500 (Note this has an extra 9 and an extra zero at the end!
so for 10,000 =49,995,000
this from this pattern or behaviour, we could work out what it would be for numbers exceeding trillions as most normal calculators won't handle large numbers, unless you have a scientific calculator
so if i may carry on a bit
100,000 =4,999,950,000 ( note it has same number of 9s and same number of zeros with 5 in the middle and 4 at the beginning.)
1,000,000=499,999,500,000 (5x9s & 5x0s)
10,000,000 =49,999,995,000,000
100,000,000 = 4,999,999,950,000,000
1,000,000,000=4,999,999,999,950,000,000,000
So I am not sure if this pattern continues or starts to expand, but notice the number of 9s and 0s at the end is 1 less than the number of zeros in front of the 1 on the left.
so we may jump to this figure now just to see;
1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 (1 with 60 zeros) or ( 1x10 to power of 59)
The answer would be 4,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,995,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000. (59x 9s and 59x0 )
So yes, this may not be as big a number as Graham's Number as I have hardly managed to fill this screen so whereas graham's number won't fit inside our Universe!
Actually, I was saying earlier that how big that number I showed up 540, with 24 naughts after it, that it would take a super computer 171,115 years to count down at a rate of 100 trillion counts per second,
so you could say if Graham's Number is so huge, then even writing at 1,000 trillion numbers per second may take billions of years and by the time Graham has gone half way, the universe or our Sun runs out of fuel! :roll
So what does this mean?
this means that Graham could not have possibly written every digit of his calculation on a paper, hence this number may not really exist, if a number is that long, and cannot be written down without using exponential method or arrows , then no one can know precisely each digit and as I said one could not therefore write it down since before you could use every atom in the universe, the time would have struck first and the sun would have become a giant red dwarf and annihilated the earth with Graham still trying to write down the digits! Let us be a little practical as well.
so you could say if Graham's Number is so huge, then even writing at 1,000 trillion numbers per second may take billions of years and by the time Graham has gone half way, the universe or our Sun runs out of fuel! :roll
So what does this mean?
this means that Graham could not have possibly written every digit of his calculation on a paper, hence this number may not really exist, if a number is that long, and cannot be written down without using exponential method or arrows , then no one can know precisely each digit and as I said one could not therefore write it down since before you could use every atom in the universe, the time would have struck first and the sun would have become a giant red dwarf and annihilated the earth with Graham still trying to write down the digits! Let us be a little practical as well.
E
EddieM
I do, there are 48 except on Sundays and high days when there are 47. One atom takes a holiday on these days on a strict rota.
Utter rubbish! even my single goose pimple has several billion atoms! when is erect!
Here's a black hole they found earlier, it's zooming round the galaxy and they can only see it because it's eating a companion star.
http://www.redorbit.com/news/space/4/ancient_black_hole_speeds_through_milky_way/
There must be loads of others that can't be seen, hope none are heading our way.
http://www.redorbit.com/news/space/4/ancient_black_hole_speeds_through_milky_way/
There must be loads of others that can't be seen, hope none are heading our way.
New question for you: How long does it take to divide 1 by 1?
1 divide by 1 equals 1
That's about two and a quarter inches on my screen. It would be longer if I made the font larger.
That's about two and a quarter inches on my screen. It would be longer if I made the font larger.
Define "divide"
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