Economy 7 metering query

[ban-all-sheds]

If they were all axed and we got on with fracking then electricity costs would fall.

Well let's hope we find a better way than that mad one.

 

[SimonH2]

Not only that but, as I keep saying, it rather seems that the first generation of 'smart meters' being rolled out (a process which looks as if it is still going to need many more years to complete) probably do not have the functionality to facilitate the sort of things you are talking about - other than providing a communications facility that 'smart appliances' (if they ever appear) might, one day, be able to make use of.

I was under the impression that they do have that ability - principally by signalling the current lecky price which is a crude proxy for the state of the lecky market. What is more troubling is that the current meters can't talk to the common comms network, that only comes with the next version of the spec with stronger encryption since (AIUI) GCHQ found flaws in the original spec. There's talk of possibly upgrading the meters already in place by a firmware upgrade - but then if they can be upgraded in the field, what's to stop a malicious actor upgrading them with a hacked firmware ? It's not yet clear whether any or all of the current models can be upgraded - any that can't will need to be replaced which rather blows away the argument for costs savings

Well let's hope we find a better way than that mad one.

Well fracking has allowed the USA to significantly reduce it's CO2 emissions by displacing coal.

 

[JohnW2]

I was under the impression that they do have that ability - principally by signalling the current lecky price which is a crude proxy for the state of the lecky market.

As I understand it, all the current ones can do is store data relating to total usage during various (programmable) time periods during a day. In the absence of smart appliances that can talk to a meter and/or multiple outputs from the meter, there is no way that the meter can know anything about what loads are using what energy.

As I see it, the only advantage in the meter knowing about pricing is that it allows the consumer to be provided with (instantaneous and cumulative) cost information - the supplier can work out billing itself from the transmitted data on energy usage during each time window.

I'm actually not clear as to what is the definition of a 'smart meter'. Mine has multiple registers, although only three (including a redundant 'total' one) are currently used for my E7 tariff. It also has provision for inclusion of an 'optional' modem - but either it does not have one or it is not used, since my billing is still determined by human meter readers, readings I provide and (invariably very wrong!) 'estimates'. Whether or not this counts as a 'smart meter', I don't really know! I am denied access to most of the potential functionality by a seal on one of the press buttons!

Kind Regards, John

 

[SimonH2]

I'm actually not clear as to what is the definition of a 'smart meter'.

Well I believe the current specification is SMETS2 but they are still using up stock of SMETS1 meters - dunno if there are any SMETS2 ones available yet. As I mentioned, GCHQ got involved in the security discussion and SMETS1 was declared inadequate security wise. Whether all or some of the currently installed smart meters have to be replaced is still to be determined.
But common features of these are :

• Remote disconnect
• Recording of usage by 1/2 hour intervals with up to 48 time of day rates, plus features like "first x units cost y p/unit then the rate changes to z p/min".
• Remote over-ride of pre-set tariff - that's the "oh bugger, we've run out of generating capacity, lets crank up the price so people will switch off some loads" function.
• Remote switching between pre-pay and credit modes. Remote switching from pre-pay to credit is certainly a positive feature as it reduces the cost (need for a meter change) because the previous tenant/owner/occupier screwed things up).
• Radio communications to in-home devices. Dunno the exact details, but it has to include the price/unit as this is used by the in-home display so it can turn RED to tell you it's going to be expensive to have your cooked dinner at dinner time.

From the outset, being able to tell appliances to alter their activity - or rather, give them the information for them to do so - has been in the spec from day one. So, for example, fridges and freezers could slightly alter their setpoints - allow the temperature to rise a little when lecky is expensive and cool down again when it recovers. And of course, as discussed here, allow washers and dryers to start their cycles when the rate goes down.

A quick search came up with some interesting results, like this one - read the comments too, and you'll probably be shaking your head (like me) at the whole shambles.

First result was to this consultation from 2013 which includes a link to the specifications (SMETS2) though they may have been updated since. I note a few more features I hadn't seen mentioned before :

• Load limiting - a load limit can be set, and it can be configured to disconnect the supply if you exceed it. That means the possibility of capacity based options like some other countries have, and presumably that's why it's included.
• Switching auxiliary loads - it sounds like radio interface to remote switches to enable things like the old "White meter" Economy 7 tariffs.

Looking down the data supported, it's certainly possible to read the current tariff rate.

 

[JohnW2]

Well I believe the current specification is SMETS2 but they are still using up stock of SMETS1 meters - dunno if there are any SMETS2 ones available yet. .... From the outset, being able to tell appliances to alter their activity - or rather, give them the information for them to do so - has been in the spec from day one. So, for example, fridges and freezers could slightly alter their setpoints - allow the temperature to rise a little when lecky is expensive and cool down again when it recovers. And of course, as discussed here, allow washers and dryers to start their cycles when the rate goes down.

It's quite a while ago but, although I may have missed it, when I had a glance at the SMETS1 and SMETS2 specs, I could find nothing about communication (in either direction) with 'smart appliances' - so, even if such appliances do ever come to exist and come into widespread use, I'm not convinced that even the 'next generation' of smart meters (SMETS2) will have the ability to talk ('or listen') to them. I have seen mention of SMETS3 being under discussion (a few more decades before finalisation and 'roll out'?!), but have no idea what's going to be in that.

Kind Regards, John

 

[SimonH2]

It talks about connecting to multiple devices via it's HAN interface - so one or more of those could be "smart" appliances or some sort of gateway between the "smart" meter HAN and whatever internal network the appliances are connected to. At least, that's my assumption.

 

[JohnW2]

It talks about connecting to multiple devices via it's HAN interface - so one or more of those could be "smart" appliances or some sort of gateway between the "smart" meter HAN and whatever internal network the appliances are connected to. At least, that's my assumption.

Yes, that's quite possible. However, I don't think that I have really seen anything in either SMETS1 or SMETS2 which would enable a meter to know in what way to "tell appliances to alter their activity", even if appropriate devices existed and the meter were able to communicate with them.

In fact, although we call them "smart" meters, the requirements of SMETS1 and SMETS2 seem to relate to a pretty 'dumb' device, in terms of what we expect of IT these days - i.e. without any appreciable processing capabilities, let alone 'clever'ones. As far as I can make out, the main things which these meters are required to be able to do is to store settings, communicate, monitor various aspects of energy usage etc., and store data in a number of 'registers', primarily according to "Time of Use" - all of which is far from 'rocket science'! One assumes that they must contain processing hardware which could be provided with firmware to allow it to do fairly 'clever' things, but I see no evidence that the the current specs require such a programmed capability and nor do I imagine that the (SMETS2) meters about to be 'rolled out' will have that capability - at least, not when installed (it's possible that their firmware could be updates).

Do you know anything about plans/proposals for SMETS3?

Kind Regards, John

 

[SimonH2]

My assumption from stuff that's been said over the years is that it's up to the appliance to "decide" when to run based on the owner's preferences - rather than the meter telling devices what to do. The latter would require "the network" to have prior knowledge of each user's preferences.

 

[JohnW2]

My assumption from stuff that's been said over the years is that it's up to the appliance to "decide" when to run based on the owner's preferences - rather than the meter telling devices what to do.

If that's the case, does it no allay a good few of the fears that some people seem to have (at least about the meters)?

I am still far from convinced that substantial, let alone widespread, appearance and deployment of these "smart appliances" is going to happen during my lifetime, or the lifetimes of a good few others here!

Kind Regards, John

 

[SimonH2]

If that's the case, does it no allay a good few of the fears that some people seem to have (at least about the meters)?

I don't think so.

• They still collect far more information than is needed for the functions they perform.
• They still (or will, when the network is up and running) pipe that data back to a massive database that we are assured will be "completely secure" And we are also supposed to believe that the data will never ever get sold off to marketers.
• They still provide the means to arbitrarily hike the price at any time - one of their primary functions.
• They still provide a remote switch off facility which we are assured will not get used arbitrarily or accidentally.
• They still provide the means to switch a user to pre-pay which previously involved a visit to physically change the meter - and we are assured that this won't happen without all the normal checks and balances.

 

[JohnW2]

I don't think so.

• They still collect far more information than is needed for the functions they perform.
• They still (or will, when the network is up and running) pipe that data back to a massive database that we are assured will be "completely secure" And we are also supposed to believe that the data will never ever get sold off to marketers.

It's not really the world's most sensitive sort of data (one assumes that they will not 'sell off' information about when particular properties are unoccupied etc) and I am sure that there will be rules, regulations and legislation that will attempt to minimise abuse/misuse of data, just as with any data. PayPal, and a good few others, have far more worrying 'massive databases'.

• They still provide the means to arbitrarily hike the price at any time - one of their primary functions.

That's surely down to what the contract says, and 'hiking of prices', per se, can (if allowed by contract, and overseeing bodies) be undertaken at any time even without smart meters. All that smart meters facilitate (if allowed by contract) is to vary price for electricity used at particular times of day or (if effective communication with 'smart appliances' ever happens) for electricity used by particular loads.

• They still provide a remote switch off facility which we are assured will not get used arbitrarily or accidentally.
• They still provide the means to switch a user to pre-pay which previously involved a visit to physically change the meter - and we are assured that this won't happen without all the normal checks and balances.

In general, the only people who need to fear those things are presumably those who contemplate failing to pay for their electricity. They presumably accept that if they don't pay for their house, car or TV, they are at risk of 'losing' it, so I'm not sure why they regard electricity differently. If such remote switching had to be used for 'ratioining', that's only an alternative to 'block cuts' - but with the potential advantage that they could potentially spare the vulnerable, or those dependent on electricity, from the cuts. ... and one presumes that thee would be rules, regulations, probably legislation and 'rights of redress' which would attempt to minimise abuse/misuse of remote switching.

Kind Regards, John

 

[ban-all-sheds]

My assumption from stuff that's been said over the years is that it's up to the appliance to "decide" when to run based on the owner's preferences - rather than the meter telling devices what to do. The latter would require "the network" to have prior knowledge of each user's preferences.

The appliances need to be able to interrogate the network to find out the current and predicted prices.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

In general, the only people who need to fear those things are presumably those who contemplate failing to pay for their electricity.

Not only those people.

There is another group who have genuine cause to fear those things - people who are aware that things WILL go wrong. Mistakes WILL be made. Remote disconnections and tariff switches WILL occur in error.

 

[JohnW2]

There is another group who have genuine cause to fear those things - people who are aware that things WILL go wrong. Mistakes WILL be made. Remote disconnections and tariff switches WILL occur in error.

Of course things can (and undoubtedly will) go wrong, and mistakes made - with or without smart meters (I once got an electricity 'bill' for a 7-figure sum!). However, that occurs in all walks of life. The important thing is that regulation, policing and provisions for correcting mistakes are in place to minimise the 'risks' associated with mistakes or abuses.

Kind Regards, John

 

[SimonH2]

It's not really the world's most sensitive sort of data (one assumes that they will not 'sell off' information about when particular properties are unoccupied etc) and I am sure that there will be rules, regulations and legislation that will attempt to minimise abuse/misuse of data, just as with any data.

Well yes, we know there will be rules ... but we know just how often they get broken.

That's surely down to what the contract says, and 'hiking of prices', per se, can (if allowed by contract, and overseeing bodies) be undertaken at any time even without smart meters.

Not to the extent it can with "smart" meters. We know that there can be time of day tariffs, but these have to be set in advance.

All that smart meters facilitate (if allowed by contract) is to vary price for electricity used at particular times of day ...

The key thing they allow is temporary overrides - so regardless of what tariff you were expecting, you can find your rates temporarily hiked at peak times.

In general, the only people who need to fear those things are presumably those who contemplate failing to pay for their electricity.

And as BAS says, also those who know that mistakes happen. At present, if the supplier screws up and wants to disconnect you, they have to send someone out to do it - there's an opportunity to intervene at that point, not to mention that it costs them to do this so there's another check put in place. In the brave new world, they can simply switch you off and argue about it later - or just switch you off by mistake. Yes, there are rules and procedures that are supposed to be followed, but as you have experienced, "mistakes happen" - so what's to prevent you being disconnected because you clearly can't have been paying for a long time if you owe them a 7 digit amount

The appliances need to be able to interrogate the network to find out the current and predicted prices.

Which I believe is supported - they can ask the meter for the information.