Economy 7 metering query

[JohnW2]

I'm convinced that they will address the widening gap between supply and demand by suppressing, or "better managing", demand rather than increasing the supply.

You have every right to have such an opinion, and I'm sure that there are plenty of others who have similar opinions ... but how you can be "convinced" without having a crystal ball, I'm not so sure.

It must be pretty unprecedented, at least in an essentially capitalist environment, to have a major industry considering the possibility of taking complex steps to minimise its sales.

A cynic might suggest that one of the best ways to prevent a potentially massive detrimental change in the balance between supply and demand over the coming decades would be to outlaw electric vehicles!

Kind Regards, John

 

[ban-all-sheds]

By all means use the communications interface which is presumably built into a 'smart meter' - but I still don't think that what you're describing has got anything to do with 'smart metering'. A 'dumb meter' with a comms interface would do equally well.

Smart metering relies on real-time communications with the electricity providers, the electricity transporters, and peer-peer with other meters in its locality.

Please do not think that the current generation of "smart meters" actually are - they are simply dumb meters with remote reading and an enhanced UI.

In fact, on reflection, your 'smart charger' would itself have to have a comms capability in order to be able to talk to the 'smart meter', so it probably might as well be designed to communicate directly with the outside world, rather than bothering to go via the meter.

Except that devices talking to the meter could be done in-band, not requiring them to have any wireless transceiver capabilities, or would only need domestic-type wi-fi to talk to a meter a few meters away.

Device hardware and software complexity would increase significantly if there were billions of them trying to communicate directly with the outside world.

And there would be no point. The smart metering model is all about the meter understanding real time and projected future electricity pricing, and about appliances negotiating with the meter and with each other about who gets to use what when. Even with something as basic as "what's the current price per unit?", why on earth implement it so that in each house dozens of appliances communicate directly with the outside world, all the time, to find that out rather than have that information provided to the meter for local interrogation using low-power wireless or some form of PLT, and with a comms network complexity sufficient to manage one house? If you're going to have your fridge communicate directly with the outside world, how do you manage address assignment, device registration, people buying second-hand appliances, people moving house, and so on? Imagine people with special needs which require something to never get cut off (the only thing I can think of right now is refrigerated medication) - what kind of systems would you need to have if the fridge communicated directly with the outside world, and had to establish its special credentials, and that had to be done on a per appliance basis whenever a new one was purchased, and undone if one was sold second hand, compared to what you'd need if it was the location which had those credentials held by the meter?

 

[ban-all-sheds]

You have every right to have such an opinion, and I'm sure that there are plenty of others who have similar opinions ... but how you can be "convinced" without having a crystal ball, I'm not so sure.

By thinking about the underlying problem and looking at the things being said by those in the vanguard of smart metering.

It must be pretty unprecedented, at least in an essentially capitalist environment, to have a major industry considering the possibility of taking complex steps to minimise its sales.

They are not trying to minimise their sales. The issue is that they do not have enough to sell. What they have can only be sold once, no matter if they could have sold more if they had more. With other scarce resources a common way to bring demand down to meet the supply is to increase the price. If you ran a small, high quality, highly regarded hotel you would be bonkers if you set your prices at a level where for each night you had 100x as many requests for a room than you could meet - you would increase the price, and keep on increasing it, until there were far fewer people who were interested (but not to the point where there weren't enough people interested).

Crude price manipulation like that for electricity would be very unpopular. But if you dress it up as a potential saving - e.g. if you have a smart meter and smart appliances the washer/dryer will wait until some time in the small hours when the price drops, if you have smart appliances they'll talk to each other and the freezer will switch off while the shower is on, then people will start to want smart metering.

When it gets to the point of an across-the board price increase for everything you use vs having appliances that will cost less to run at certain times, people will start to want it.

A cynic might suggest that one of the best ways to prevent a potentially massive detrimental change in the balance between supply and demand over the coming decades would be to outlaw electric vehicles!

That would not be cynical, it would be realistic.

 

[Aragorn84]

Well back on topic. Had them out again today, and another failure.

They apparently only have 5 terminal meters, and he claimed he was unable to fit the 5 terminal meter with nothing in the fifth terminal. He said he'd never seen a 4 terminal 2 rate meter.

Oh well, i will change supplier instead. Bulb seem to be offering competitive prices and from some feedback from the EV forum they will happily install the meter i need!

 

[JohnW2]

They apparently only have 5 terminal meters, and he claimed he was unable to fit the 5 terminal meter with nothing in the fifth terminal.

I can'ts ee why he couldn't fit it, but it's not what you want ans, with nothing ion the 'fifth terminal', you presumably would not get any cheap rate e;ectricity!

He said he'd never seen a 4 terminal 2 rate meter.

I've got one I'm not convinced that I've ever seen a 5-terminal one - but, there again, I've never had storage heaters and probably have never looked at the meters of those I know who do!

Kind Regards, John

 

[SimonH2]

So i had Scottish (British) Gas out this morning to fit an Economy 7 meter.

I think there's a fundamental part of your problem

All he tried to do was tell me to get a smart meter

What do you expect from someone with a quota to meet.

For donkeys' years it has been observed that the proportion of households with TV licences is so high that it would make sense (removing all the costs associated with administering and policing 'licensing') if it the money simply obtained through general taxation. However, successive governments appear to have have rejected that idea.

There is also the issue that the BBC don't want such a move. At present, they have what is to a large extent independent funding which removes most of the "you didn't push the agenda we wanted so we're cutting your funding" ability of politicians to manipulate them. Yes the government does have a certain amount of influence, but nothing like controlling the funding tap would do.

By thinking about the underlying problem and looking at the things being said by those in the vanguard of smart metering.

And most of what is being said is a load of ... rubbish. Hi-light what is really a non-problem that they can solve - while ignoring the real reason for putting them in.

They are not trying to minimise their sales. The issue is that they do not have enough to sell.

More to the point, they are being TOLD to fit them. It's costing them a lot of money - and it makes them unpopular when they put their prices up to pay for them - and the only benefit the energy suppliers get is remote reading.

You have to realise that the electricity supply industry is not "one outfit". The way things are run means that the different generators make decisions based on what's best for them - while being screwed over by overt and covert costs of renewables. The results of these effects is that many companies have decided to close generator plants - especially gas turbines which have been left unviable.

The economics goes something like this : As a generator, you have to bid to supply the pool. If you don't bid low enough then you don't get to be called. Meanwhile, intermittent sources like windmills get priority - everything they can make goes into the grid even if it's not needed. Apparently, at times across Europe it possible for the price to go negative As a gas turbine operator, you are expected to take up the variations in demand - starting/stopping/varying output very frequently. The result of this is that your turbines suffer badly from thermal cycling stresses which puts up your maintenance costs) while only being called upon to supply a limited amount of power at peak times (thus limiting your income) - not a recipe for profits.

Coal doesn't fare any better with huge costs for CO2 emissions.

And nuclear has been kicked down the road for so long by multiple governments that it's not going to be online any time soon.

So with generating plants shutting down - some because they are simply end of life, some because the economics don't work - the figures show that there are likely to be times when we simply do not have enough lecky to go round. Step up "smart" meters, which are primarily to reduce demand at peak times - by pricing people out of using it. Obviously people aren't going to take these if they know the truth, so the industry is forced to put out a lot of bull***t PR and hard selling to get them out, and they are doing this because the government has told them to under pain of major penalties - and that is enacting some bo***cks from Europe.
It's not about people saving money - that's just the bull***t that ignorant politicians seem to believe - it's about rationing. If hiking the price 5 fold or 10 fold doesn't reduce demand enough, then the rolling blackouts start - and all "smart" meters have remote disconnect facility so they can do the rolling blackouts on house by house rather than block by block as in the 70s.

Crude price manipulation like that for electricity would be very unpopular.

But it's what's going to happen. The prime function is the reverse of economy 7 type tariffs - peak time price hikes specifically to discourage use when people want to use it (how daft wanting to cook dinner at dinner time !)

 

[Aragorn84]

Green Energy UK has already introduced a 3 tier ToD tariff called Tide.

Its in its infancy, but they charge 25p between 4pm and 7pm, 12p for the rest of the day, and 5p at night during the E7 hours. When i put that tariff into a calculator against my usage, it worked out about the same as the best E7 tariff available. A few pounds a month cheaper infact. Without the night-time car charging it was slightly more expensive though. Which i guess makes sense, the current tariffs are essentially averaging that expensive period into the rest of the day by making it slightly more expensive all the time. It would probably be worse if i had an electric hob.

I suspect what you'll start to see is battery (or other) storage systems, both domestic and at a grid level being used to ride out those peaks. Theres lots of effort going into developing decent grid-scale storage systems at the moment. Whats interesting, is the domestic battery storage systems (Tesla Powerwall and the like) can be programmed to charge up on the off-peak rate, and then be programmed to deliver energy at peak times, but this functionality is disabled in the UK market, instead they're only used to absorb excess PV generation, and thus only work for people with solar PV installations. Seems strange!

 

[ban-all-sheds]

By thinking about the underlying problem and looking at the things being said by those in the vanguard of smart metering.

And most of what is being said is a load of ... rubbish. Hi-light what is really a non-problem that they can solve - while ignoring the real reason for putting them in.

By "vanguard" I did not mean the suppliers rolling out first-generation "smart meters". I meant the people doing research, looking into the future, being at the cutting edge of SM technology, not the trailing-edge like Lowri Beck (for example. Other companies are available).

I said that in reply to JW2 asking me how I could be so sure that they will address the widening gap between supply and demand by suppressing, or "better managing", demand rather than increasing the supply.

Crude price manipulation like that for electricity would be very unpopular.

But it's what's going to happen. The prime function is the reverse of economy 7 type tariffs - peak time price hikes specifically to discourage use when people want to use it (how daft wanting to cook dinner at dinner time !)

What I meant was that they aren't simply going to increase the price across the board, at all times and for all uses, until they have driven demand down to meet supply.

The price manipulation will be more subtle, and they will suck people into the regime by promises of savings, and when that hasn't worked they'll make SMs compulsory.

But I do suspect that before then we will see the emergence of smart appliances and the carrot of lower standing charges and lower off-peak rates if you have a SM and the appliances which work together to schedule their usage and to keep your demand under a certain maximum. Consumers in France already have a regime of tariffs based on maximum demand, which is managed by load shedding relays. I also would not be surprised to see SMs become a sine qua non for EV chargers.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Whats interesting, is the domestic battery storage systems (Tesla Powerwall and the like) can be programmed to charge up on the off-peak rate, and then be programmed to deliver energy at peak times, but this functionality is disabled in the UK market, instead they're only used to absorb excess PV generation, and thus only work for people with solar PV installations. Seems strange!

I wonder what could, or would, be done to people who modified theirs so that it did charge up from off-peak....

 

[Taylortwocities]

Never mind the batteries. Couldn't I take an off peak feed and poke it back into the grid and get feed-in credit.

Hmm, must do some sums...........

 

[JohnW2]

But I do suspect that before then we will see the emergence of smart appliances and the carrot of lower standing charges and lower off-peak rates if you have a SM and the appliances which work together to schedule their usage and to keep your demand under a certain maximum. Consumers in France already have a regime of tariffs based on maximum demand, which is managed by load shedding relays.

Yes, I agree that is the most likely first move, and I would regard it as essentially sensible, rather than sinister, but I do still think that the timescales would be very long (several decades) before we would seen widespread effective deployment of such a system (let alone what might 'follow it').

Having said that, there are fairly limited capabilities of such a system (assuming it is 'sensible'). Some of the greatest consumptions (particularly cooking, showers) have to happen at roughly 'defined' times of day. With other potentially major consumptions (particularly tumble driers, and to a lesser extent WMs, DWMs etc.) there would probably be fire safety concerns associated with 'scheduling' them to occur at times of day when the machines were not being 'supervised'.

I would also suggest, as I have before, that such 'tinkering' with patterns of domestic usage would probably almost fade into insignificance unless we abandon the idea of having a major movement to EVs over the coming decades. I wonder how the French would/will handle that?

Kind Regards, John

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Yes, I agree that is the most likely first move, and I would regard it as essentially sensible, rather than sinister, but I do still think that the timescales would be very long (several decades) before we would seen widespread effective deployment of such a system (let alone what might 'follow it').

We can't wait that long.

Having said that, there are fairly limited capabilities of such a system (assuming it is 'sensible'). Some of the greatest consumptions (particularly cooking, showers) have to happen at roughly 'defined' times of day.

Roughly, yes, but in any given street or block of flats etc there is probably a bit of flexibility which could be exploited to reduce the number of showers working simultaneously.

With other potentially major consumptions (particularly tumble driers, and to a lesser extent WMs, DWMs etc.) there would probably be fire safety concerns associated with 'scheduling' them to occur at times of day when the machines were not being 'supervised'.

There might be "concerns", but there are plenty of such appliances used overnight, when the "supervision" consists of "I hope I hear the smoke alarm and can get out of the house unharmed".

I would also suggest, as I have before, that such 'tinkering' with patterns of domestic usage would probably almost fade into insignificance unless we abandon the idea of having a major movement to EVs over the coming decades. I wonder how the French would/will handle that?

They'll be fine. They'll just build more nuclear power stations paid for by the profits and dividends provided by the hapless people of this country who have had their infrastructure sold off as part of an ideologically driven policy to shrink the size of the state to 3rd-world levels.

 

[JohnW2]

We can't wait that long.

I doubt that we have any choice. Has any 'smart appliance' yet been produced and, more to the point, has anyone yet even designed an infrastructure, protocols etc. to enable such appliances to work with one another?

There might be "concerns", but there are plenty of such appliances used overnight, when the "supervision" consists of "I hope I hear the smoke alarm and can get out of the house unharmed".

It would be rather extraordinary if, in a world which now demands 'non-combustible' CUs, people were forced to run tumble driers/dryers etc. overnight!

Kind Regards, John

 

[ban-all-sheds]

I doubt that we have any choice. Has any 'smart appliance' yet been produced and, more to the point, has anyone yet even designed an infrastructure, protocols etc. to enable such appliances to work with one another?

I don't know where we are with standards, interoperability etc, but there's a fair bit of activity in this space.

https://www.google.co.uk/search?dcr=0&q=appliances+home+energy+management+system

There are some appliances.

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=lg+thinq


And according to the tinfoil hat brigade, there are lots of appliances with RFID chips in - they of course cannot participate in any dialogues, but they do allow the smart meter to spy on you.

It would be rather extraordinary if, in a world which now demands 'non-combustible' CUs, people were forced to run tumble driers/dryers etc. overnight!

Wouldn't it though.

But that sort of inconsistency is inevitable when you have lazy, evidence-free policy making.

 

[JohnW2]

I don't know where we are with standards, interoperability etc, but there's a fair bit of activity in this space. ...

Indeed, but that's just 'activity' - nothing I'm aware of approaching 'standardistation'.

There are some appliances. ... https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=lg+thinq

Fair enough, but I doubt they would be compatible with whatever systems the electricity suppliers eventually decided to implement.

Whilst I agree with you that 'something needs to be done'soon than this, I still think that widespread effective implementation of what you're talking about would take 'decades'.

Kind Regards, John