Economy 7 metering query

Couldn't I take an off peak feed and poke it back into the grid and get feed-in credit
Probably only if you signed up years ago and got a very high FIT. IIRC some were c. 40p per unit.

I just heard a piece about this and an energy consultant said that he had looked at using solar panels to charge batteries during the day and using the electricity at night, and the batteries would be expected to die half a year before he had recovered his cost, let alone made any profit.

He said that a 1kWh battery is c. £1,000 and with electricity c. 14p/unit it is pretty obvious that this is a non-starter. £1,000 divided by 14p is 7,142 full charge & discharge cycles just to get the battery cost back, and 7,142 days is over 19.5 years.

Anyone who talks positively about grid scale storage of electricity with batteries does not understand the area or has not done the sums. The electricity network in South Australia is in a mess, some would say because of an obsession with renewables. After some recent problems they are now building the world's largest battery, based on Tesla technology.

The costs of this seem to be secret but estimates range from AUD33 million to AUD240 million (£19-142 million). This gets a battery that will hold 129MWh which sounds a lot but SA demand is 800-2,000 MW, so the battery would at best power the state for less than 10 minutes.

Of course it is not intended to do that but to take in excess power that renewables generate that is not currently needed and supply that when it is needed. But it gives some indication of the hurdle in front of relying on renewables for more than a small part of the supply.
 
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"The 648-megawatt Kamuthi plant went online this September and is considered the world's largest solar project in a single location. For comparison, the world's second largest solar plant, the Topaz Solar Farm in California, has a capacity of 550 megawatts."

https://www.ecowatch.com/india-solar-market-2118202661.html

Battery technology research continues apace, but they need to be cheap on a massive scale.

He said that a 1kWh battery is c. £1,000

I don't know what sort of battery he means. You can buy a 100AH 12v lead-acid battery for £100 today.

100x12 = 1200Wh = 1.2kWh

Lithium is dearer.
One-off retail:
"Soltaro 1kWh Lithium Ion Battery
£667.50 £614.10 inc VAT.
25 Year Life Expectancy / 10,000 Cycles
Compact and stackable (no cabinet required)"


https://solarsuppliesuk.co.uk/product/soltaro-1kwh-lithium-ion-battery/


"1kWh Lithium Battery Pack Chevrolet Volt - 22.5V/45Ah/6 cells
$199.00 each"

http://evbatterycenter.com/HAC4/ind...-chevrolet-volt-22-5v-45ah-6-cells&Itemid=605
 
I don't know what sort of battery he means. You can buy a 100AH 12v lead-acid battery for £100 today.

He didn't say. You can listen here
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b08ylrjq
with the whole section starting 14:45 in, and the piece on batteries starting 20:00 in.

AFAIUI, lead-acid batteries are not normally used for this sort of application because they don't perform well, rapid charging and rapid & prolonged discharging degrading the life. I think that lithium-ion batteries are 2-3 times as expensive.

He may also have been including the whole installation, without which the battery is useless.

Even if the cost of the whole installation is only £250, you are still talking 1,785 full charge & discharge cycles and 4.9 years just to break even. That allows for no maintenance cost.
 
got it

at 21.15 he says "until recently they cost about a thousand pounds per kWh"

so he is consciously giving out-of-date information.

also he says "they only last so long" which is partly true. The ad above says "25 Year Life Expectancy / 10,000 Cycles" which is not the impression he wanted to give.

can only guess why.

I agree the lead-acid batteries, although cheap and widely available, are not as suitable as more recent developments. I bet the "room of batteries" he mentions Indian homes will use them though.
 
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Battery costs are falling all the time.

Tesla Powerwall is 14kwh and costs about 5 grand.

Other options than batteries are being investigated for large scale grid storage. Compressed gasses and various heat pump ideas. I guess its about maximising efficiency and density but it also needs to scale. Flow batteries are also possible where space isnt an issue, and they are very cheap for the capacity.
 
at 21.15 he says "until recently they cost about a thousand pounds per kWh"

so he is consciously giving out-of-date information.

Yes he does say that. It may well depend upon what he means by recently & may be the difference between battery costs & system costs. If battery costs have fallen in the last few months then there may be few if any systems available using the latest (cheaper) batteries. Hence the only available price figures are from before battery prices fell.

also he says "they only last so long" which is partly true. The ad above says "25 Year Life Expectancy / 10,000 Cycles" which is not the impression he wanted to give.

Well some extracts from that include:
25 Year Life Expectancy / 10,000 Cycles
90% depth of discharge, 10,000 cycles
Our battery systems are guaranteed to last for 10,000 cycles or 10 years.
Life-span 10,000 cycles @ 90% DOD
Standard Warranty 5 years, 10 years optional

So I think some caution about how long a battery will last in a home setting (where someone will just install it & use it like they do a socket) as opposed to an industrial / commercial setting (where monitoring & maintenance is someone's job) is justified.

Leaving all of that aside, I think my point is still valid. £614.10 just for the battery, saving 14p/day gives 4,386 full cycles to break even, and 4,386 is 12 years.

However the estimate / warranty is based on a 90% not a 100% discharge, so these have to be increased by 11%.

I bet the "room of batteries" he mentions Indian homes will use them though.

I'm sure you are right.

Battery costs are falling all the time.

True but meaningless. If something costs £1,000 now and the price reduces 1p per month then the 'cost is falling all the time' but it will be a long time before most people can afford one.

Tesla Powerwall is 14kwh and costs about 5 grand.

From https://www.tesla.com/en_GB/powerwall

Order Summary
One 14 kWh Powerwall battery £5,400
Supporting hardware £500
Price for Powerwall equipment £5,900

Typical installation cost ranges from £800 to £2,000. This does not include solar installation, electrical upgrades (if necessary), permit fees, or any retailer / connection charges that may apply. Installation cost will vary based on your electrical panel, and where you would like your Powerwall installed. Installation will be scheduled after you place your order.

So I make that more like £7,000 actually installed in your house. That is if you can have it installed. The last time I looked into this, other than demo models, no Powerwalls had actually been shipped. When you place an order they take a £400 deposit and if the price rises before installation they just give the option of a refund on the deposit.

Even if a Powerwall was only £5,000 installed. How many would we need to store a significant fraction of the UK's power and how much would that cost?
 
we were talking about battery cost. the Powerwall is some batteries, and some power electronics (inverter etc), for £5.4k.

So already significantly less than the 1k per kwh your guy quoted.

Furthermore, they are typically sold into solar installations, where the savings are much larger, as your not paying to fill the battery in the first place, its coming from energy you couldnt otherwise use and were giving away for 2p a kwh. And ofcourse, my original point, was that if electricity costs were to sky rocket, things like this become more and more viable.
 
we were talking about battery cost. the Powerwall is some batteries, and some power electronics (inverter etc), for £5.4k.

And as I have said more than once it was not clear if he meant just the battery or the whole installation. Even at £5,400, saving 14p per unit and assuming that you get 13kWh out per cycle, that is 2,967 cycles or more than eight years. There is no way that this makes sense economically.

If you get less than 13kWh out per day then the time increases and the probability of something breaking increases.

Furthermore, they are typically sold into solar installations, where the savings are much larger

No. If you read what I wrote it was in the context of charging it from solar panels.

as your not paying to fill the battery in the first place

So solar PV systems are supplied and installed for free are they? You may not pay directly for every unit of electricity that they supply but you are paying for it in large upfront costs. A Powerwall (or any battery system) is just a method of making a solar PV system more economic by time-shifting some of the power from when it is generated to when it is needed.

And ofcourse, my original point, was that if electricity costs were to sky rocket, things like this become more and more viable.

And if wishes were horses beggars would ride.

One of the biggest upward pressures on electricity prices has been (and will be for years to come) subsidising otherwise uneconomic renewables. If they were all axed and we got on with fracking then electricity costs would fall.
 
It would be rather extraordinary if, in a world which now demands 'non-combustible' CUs, people were forced to run tumble driers/dryers etc. overnight!
Well in this world of joined up thinking, that IS exactly what they are proposing - that people get to (automatically) run power hungry appliances when the lecky is cheap.
And apart from the fire safety issue, how many people live in detached houses compared with terraces and flats ? I'd be "more than a little annoyed" if I lived in a flat and the neighbour above ran a washing machine or tumble drier when I was trying to sleep. SO not only are they proposing to pressure people to create a fire risk, but also to create antisocial behaviour :rolleyes:
 
Well in this world of joined up thinking, that IS exactly what they are proposing ...
I realise that's what they are proposing (and I agree with your other comments about 'downsides'), but I'm not sure that they would 'get away with it'. If the Fire Service's teeth are so sharp that they can 'force' our entire country to make a shift to 'non-combustible' CUs (on the basis of seemingly iffy evidence and equally iffy thought processes), I imagine that they could also put a stop to this proposal - even their statistics presumably must tell them that more fires (and more deaths/injuries related to such fires) originate in domestic appliances than in CUs.

Kind Regards, John
 
It's not a case of whether they would get away with it, they have already put in place the mechanism for it and sold smart metering partly on that ability - the only thing that's stopped it having already gone into use is that no-one has started selling the equipment to do it yet.
I can well imagine one department pushing this, and then someone else (as you say, LFB seem to have some teeth) blocking it - after the money has been spent making it possible :rolleyes: It will probably need a death or two before it gets banned though.
 
It's not a case of whether they would get away with it, they have already put in place the mechanism for it and sold smart metering partly on that ability - the only thing that's stopped it having already gone into use is that no-one has started selling the equipment to do it yet.
Not only that but, as I keep saying, it rather seems that the first generation of 'smart meters' being rolled out (a process which looks as if it is still going to need many more years to complete) probably do not have the functionality to facilitate the sort of things you are talking about - other than providing a communications facility that 'smart appliances' (if they ever appear) might, one day, be able to make use of.

Kind Regards, John
 

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