Economy 7 Storage Heater and Water not heating up overnight!

[Bosswhite]

Hi,

I currently have an issue with my Economy 7 storage heating system and water and would really appreciate your help / ideas. I've searched the forums and can't find an obvious solution. Apologies in advance however I am not DIY or electrics savvy (I feel a sense of achievement just wiring a plug ! ).

My issue is:

For the last few days, both my storage heater and my water heating do not function on the Economy 7 cheaper rates ie overnight. Therefore if i leave the normal plug type switches on for the timed Economy 7 operation overnight, neither is there any heat from the storage heater, nor any hot water, in the morning. They do, however, work using the manual booster switches - which is therefore my only method of heating the water tank and the storage heater. This will be costing me substantially more as well as the fact that I seem to run out of hot water more quickly even if the manual booster switch has been left on for a long time.

My set up:

2 bed flat - built 13 years ago (I've been here for most of them). No replacing, altering or issues of/with heating or water tank set up.

Dimplex storage heater in lounge. Connected by 2 wires to 2 separate switches - 1 is manual booster switch that allows it to be switched on immediately (that works fine) - and 1 switch that I would leave on permanently and previously would mean the storage heater heated overnight and released the heat during the day - this now doesn't happen.

Water tank with 2 wires connected to 2 switches - both the same operation as above. Again manual booster works and heats water - the permanent switch being on now doesn't result in water heating up on its own.

Advice please:

Please could anyone advise me on what the most likely issue is?

Secondly is there likely to be anything simple I could or should do to verify the above bearing in mind I'm not an expert in any shape or form?

Having said the above, if the issue is likely to be complicated - or a complex investigation needed to assess the problem, then I do have an electrician that would come round for a fee - I just would really appreciate a bit of guidance on what he should do before I pay for it, as he has not had any Economy 7 experience - on the phone he said sounded like my whole element in the tank would need replacing which could cost close to a grand!!! Is this really a likely scenario / cost? Scares me as winter is coming so maybe I am for forced to spend that much even though I will struggle to afford it.

Thanks in advance.

Mo

A grand for a replacement Immersion Heater Element !!! £15/20 at most, dunno what he would charge for labour
Storage Heater element wouldnt cost a lot more either.

 

[OwainDIYer]

on the phone he said sounded like my whole element in the tank would need replacing which could cost close to a grand!!!

A grand for a replacement Immersion Heater Element !!! £15/20 at most, dunno what he would charge for labour
Storage Heater element wouldnt cost a lot more either.[/quote]

I wouldn't expect to pay a grand even if a complete new hot water cylinder was required (assuming it's vented and not a mains pressure system).

The picture isn't completely clear but I think I see a 5th, low current, rate-change wire from the meter. That suggests an additional timeswitch/teleswitch/contactor or something.

Another possibility - for the water heating - is the overheat stat on the off-peak immersion (if there are separate ones for each element) has popped and needs resetting. It is below the immersion heater terminal cover. CAUTION removing the cover will expose live terminals. Switch off first.

 

[MeterMonkey]

I can see from the meter picture that there is 5 tails into the meter, the two red stripes on the forward live will be the 7 hour live.

You need to check to see if there is any power here at the time of switch over.

I do not recommend doing this yourself. Rather than paying an electrician to come in and diagnose the problem, (sorry SE sparks) contact your supplier and have them come out and replace the meter.

There isnt anyway for a meter fitter to assertain if the 7hour is working unless he arrives between 12 & 7. Have them change the meter first, if it still doesnt work, then call an electrician in. That way if it is the meter, you havent wasted your money paying for call out fees only for him to tell you the meter is at fault.

The meter itself has the timeswitch built into it. Its not exactly a new meter, so it could be faulty.

 

[Bosswhite]

The five tails are standard, two to the Meter, two out to consumer box ( Fuse/MCB box) and earth sheaving to Company cable.

Economy 7 is not separate to Domestic Supply, "HuJaleak" explained it correctly, there are two readings in the Meter, High / Low.

High is daytime normal consumption then a timer switches on the night side of the meter to low reading (Economy 7), so to gain the most from Economy 7 one should do all their cooking, washing, ironing etc after midnight. it is all the same power,( if the lights are on after midnight they are on off peak supply, so the Immersion and the heater must work as well)

It appears to me that the problem here is that the Immersion and the Heater are not connected to timer switches, (or the switches were removed by previous tenant) and that the second switch that is mentioned is the "Over ride " switch which one would have to switch on after midnight to benefit from economy 7 night tariff, Change these to Timer Switches, About a £ 10/20 each depending on type ,( Labour extra)

 

[MeterMonkey]

Dont be fooled into thinking that you can use electric after midnight and it would be cheaper.

Only items connected to the 7hr live cable will be able to take advantage of the cheaper cost of electric.

 

[yellows]

Thanks. I'm guessing I would still have the issue of only the smaller element in the water tank being heated as well.

All in all am a little bit none the wiser and the teleswitch (or lack of) does confuse me!!

At the moment I'm thinking - if the E7 timing switch over is done within the meter - I should try the electricity company first saying my cheaper rate power is not automatically coming on / to my units at night and see if they send a meter person round.

Failing that, or if that doesn't resolve, then I should get the electrician in to investigate further, appreciating your cost points re elements!

 

[bernardgreen]

It does look like the meter switches a separate supply to the economy 7 devices as there are 5 tails connected to it. ( meters do not normally have an earth and the few that do would have a green/yellow wire for the earth )

It isn't clear from the picture if there is a mechanical clock in the meter. If there is then this may have stopped working or have lost time due to a prolonged power cut too long for the battery ( if fitted ) to deal with.

It is not unknown for Teleswitches ( the radio controlled ones ) to lose signal and default to Economy 7 OFF as they depend on receiving a radio signal and changes the local environment ( new buiildings etc etc ) can reduce the signal to the point the Teleswitch will not react to it.

What ever the problem with the meter you need to contact your supplier, explain what is happening and request at their expense the meter is checked for correct switching.

 

[Bosswhite]

http://www.storageheaters.com/economy-7-heaters.htm

This may help to explain Economy 7, it depends whether you have one meter, Combined high/low consumption or two meters. one for daytime use and one for night.

 

[yellows]

Thanks Bernard - that's very clear and helpful - i will be on the phone to them tomorrow.... Hopefully they help!!

 

[gazfen]

Dont be fooled into thinking that you can use electric after midnight and it would be cheaper.

Only items connected to the 7hr live cable will be able to take advantage of the cheaper cost of electric.

Ha Ha its the timeswitch part of the meter that decides what you pay why do you think it has 2 rates , no other meter thats it .

 

[MeterMonkey]

Dont be fooled into thinking that you can use electric after midnight and it would be cheaper.

Only items connected to the 7hr live cable will be able to take advantage of the cheaper cost of electric.

Ha Ha its the time switch part of the meter that decides what you pay why do you think it has 2 rates , no other meter thats it .

There is a 24 hour live and a 7 hour live, the 7 hour live is the lower rate cost of electricity, which is why the meter has two readings. If there was one reading, how would the supplier differentiate between the which is the higher and lower cost units?

The time switch switches the 7 hour to live once it has received the signal.

 

[crystal ball]

On an E7 system the whole house is switched to cheap rate by the teleswitch, which also switches on the storage heaters via an integral contactor, I used to work for the local electricity board and have fitted hundreds of E7 meters and timeswitches

Times can vary around the country, in my area off peak is 2230-0030 and 0230-0730 year round, you should be able to tell which rate you are on by an indicator on the meter display, ie a flashing cursor or similar

 

[crystal ball]

It does sound like the E7 changeover has failed in your case

looks like you have one circuit for water heating and two for storage heaters, you only mention one heater in your post is that the case

 

[yellows]

Thanks Crystall ball. Actually I do also have another storage heater in the bedroom as well.

 

[crystal ball]

Is that heater working?