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D
Deleted member 64697
Hi!
I hope you can help me further now that I have this extra info and images.
The shower is 10.kW according the data plate, but it's not possible to take a photo so you'll have to trust me.
My flat is only a 1-bed so I know there are no fuse boxes hidden anywhere else in here (unless it's in the attic) so the photos below are the only ones. I live in a small block of flats (6 flats) could some central box and other flat usage be affecting me?
Here are the photos of the fuseboxes and the meter.
The shower was on fuse 3
Thanks for any help you can give me
I hope you can help me further now that I have this extra info and images.
The shower is 10.kW according the data plate, but it's not possible to take a photo so you'll have to trust me.
My flat is only a 1-bed so I know there are no fuse boxes hidden anywhere else in here (unless it's in the attic) so the photos below are the only ones. I live in a small block of flats (6 flats) could some central box and other flat usage be affecting me?
Here are the photos of the fuseboxes and the meter.
The shower was on fuse 3
Thanks for any help you can give me
be very careful with that small CU. The brass terminals at the top of the main switch are live even when it is switched off.you will notice the larger one has push-on polythene covers there.
?how many wires go into the top of fuse 3, and what colour are they?
RCD?
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I cant actually see anything in there that would result in the issue you are having, but a few points to make anyway:
1) Those incomming tails for the small heating board are badly terminated
2) It looks like whoever has installed that shower has fitted it to a board that can't really supply it, stuck it on an undersized fuse as a consequence of that, and make room for it by shifting all the sockets onto one fuse (look at the number of cables in fuse 2), I wouldn't recommend having them carry out any further work!
3) that board is really due for replacement
4) just confirm that the shower fuse only has that one brown cable into the top?
I may have been barking up the wrong tree here , is there a noticable difference in water pressure between morning and evening?, possibly try the shower in the evening and turn some taps on to see if you can recreate the morning problem
1) Those incomming tails for the small heating board are badly terminated
2) It looks like whoever has installed that shower has fitted it to a board that can't really supply it, stuck it on an undersized fuse as a consequence of that, and make room for it by shifting all the sockets onto one fuse (look at the number of cables in fuse 2), I wouldn't recommend having them carry out any further work!
3) that board is really due for replacement
4) just confirm that the shower fuse only has that one brown cable into the top?
I may have been barking up the wrong tree here
, is there a noticable difference in water pressure between morning and evening?, possibly try the shower in the evening and turn some taps on to see if you can recreate the morning problem
D
Deleted member 64697
Thanks John for the advice - I was very careful and the cover is now firmly back on.
From the picture and I'm guessing from those that are near it, I would say these wires are possible:
brown, black, grey, yellow-green
I should have thought to take a photo from above
From the picture and I'm guessing from those that are near it, I would say these wires are possible:
brown, black, grey, yellow-green
I should have thought to take a photo from above
D
Deleted member 64697
Hi Adam
The pressure seems the same to me in the morning and evening. The shower takes the water from the main rather than from the cold water tank so that the pressure was better (i.e., no need to add a pump to the water tank).
Could other people's electric usage affect me or is this total nonsense?
Thanks
The pressure seems the same to me in the morning and evening. The shower takes the water from the main rather than from the cold water tank so that the pressure was better (i.e., no need to add a pump to the water tank).
Could other people's electric usage affect me or is this total nonsense?
Thanks
RCD?
A theory:
In the morning, the off-peak supply is on, confirmed by both of the neons for the hot water tank being on. This is quite likely, as no one has said what time in the morning this is, and off peak can be up to 6 or 7am in many areas.
In the evening, the off peak circuits are off (and only one of the water heater neons is on).
The supply voltage to the property is on the low side, but with minimal other loads in the evening, the voltage at the shower is enough to operate the shower correctly. The low voltage may partly caused by the shoddy way in which the shower circuit has been connected into the CU, or loose connections elsewhere.
In the morning, the voltage at the shower drops due to the additional loading on the supply. The voltage is still adequate to activate the solenoid in the shower (so water flows), but too low for the electronics in the shower which either detect some fault, or just malfunction, failing to activate the heating elements.
So - in the morning, if all of the other items are switched off (hot water heaters and the like), does the shower work correctly?
If this isn't the solution, do you have an old lady down the road who can control street lighting with her kettle?
In the morning, the off-peak supply is on, confirmed by both of the neons for the hot water tank being on. This is quite likely, as no one has said what time in the morning this is, and off peak can be up to 6 or 7am in many areas.
In the evening, the off peak circuits are off (and only one of the water heater neons is on).
The supply voltage to the property is on the low side, but with minimal other loads in the evening, the voltage at the shower is enough to operate the shower correctly. The low voltage may partly caused by the shoddy way in which the shower circuit has been connected into the CU, or loose connections elsewhere.
In the morning, the voltage at the shower drops due to the additional loading on the supply. The voltage is still adequate to activate the solenoid in the shower (so water flows), but too low for the electronics in the shower which either detect some fault, or just malfunction, failing to activate the heating elements.
So - in the morning, if all of the other items are switched off (hot water heaters and the like), does the shower work correctly?
If this isn't the solution, do you have an old lady down the road who can control street lighting with her kettle?
D
Deleted member 64697
Hi flameport!
I'm trying the shower between 7.15 and 8 and it's not working. I have tried turning most of my other large electricals off (e.g., water tanks, bathroom electric radiator, bedroom heater) but this didn't help. I did ask before whether usage in the rest of the flats could somehow affect me as I'm assuming lots of other people are getting up at the same time as me.
reggie perrin, in regard to your RCD questions, what is an RCD?
Thanks
I'm trying the shower between 7.15 and 8 and it's not working. I have tried turning most of my other large electricals off (e.g., water tanks, bathroom electric radiator, bedroom heater) but this didn't help. I did ask before whether usage in the rest of the flats could somehow affect me as I'm assuming lots of other people are getting up at the same time as me.
reggie perrin, in regard to your RCD questions, what is an RCD?
Thanks
I think flameport has deduced the right cause, being voltage drop in the morning.
There is some essential information that you could gather at the cost of £4.99, a few minutes work, and the right amount of care.
The money is for a cheap multimeter that will measure 240 Volts AC. The few minutes work is to measure the voltage at the shower isolator switch (the pull cord switch), and the care is needed so that you don't get a shock while doing it.
The careful way to do it is to isolate the shower circuit at the CU first, then unscrew the face plate of the switch and ease it down. Then turn on again at the CU, and measure the voltage with the shower switch turned off, and again with it on.
An ever safer method would be to buy/use a multimeter with leads that can attach with crocodile clips - then you'll never have your fingers anywhere near live terminals.
__________________
Measure the voltage when the shower is working, and again when it isn't.
You should end up with four measurements, which you can post here for interpretation.
It's also possible that you have two faults, one being voltage drop and another being the shower electronics being out of tolerance.
A test that requires more competence would be to measure the impedence of the cable to/from the shower unit, with the switch turned on, by disconnecting at both ends, shorting live-neutral and measuring at the other end. This will reveal any such nasties as a dodgy joint in a hidden junction box or a highly resistive switch contact.
There is some essential information that you could gather at the cost of £4.99, a few minutes work, and the right amount of care.
The money is for a cheap multimeter that will measure 240 Volts AC. The few minutes work is to measure the voltage at the shower isolator switch (the pull cord switch), and the care is needed so that you don't get a shock while doing it.
The careful way to do it is to isolate the shower circuit at the CU first, then unscrew the face plate of the switch and ease it down. Then turn on again at the CU, and measure the voltage with the shower switch turned off, and again with it on.
An ever safer method would be to buy/use a multimeter with leads that can attach with crocodile clips - then you'll never have your fingers anywhere near live terminals.
__________________
Measure the voltage when the shower is working, and again when it isn't.
You should end up with four measurements, which you can post here for interpretation.
It's also possible that you have two faults, one being voltage drop and another being the shower electronics being out of tolerance.
A test that requires more competence would be to measure the impedence of the cable to/from the shower unit, with the switch turned on, by disconnecting at both ends, shorting live-neutral and measuring at the other end. This will reveal any such nasties as a dodgy joint in a hidden junction box or a highly resistive switch contact.
Make sure the crocodile clips are insulated and cannot short out the 240 volts.
One way to estimate the impedance of the cable is to measure voltage at CU and then at the switch to find the voltage drop. From that and the declared wattage of the heater an approximate value for the impedance of the cable be calculated.
One old sparks showed me hs trick for finding cable volt drop.
Measuring between neutral of the lighting circuit and the neutral of the socket feeding a one kilowatt heater. This gave the voltage drop along the neutral of the cable to the socket without touching a live component. It could be assumed the volt drop along the live would be the same.
One way to estimate the impedance of the cable is to measure voltage at CU and then at the switch to find the voltage drop. From that and the declared wattage of the heater an approximate value for the impedance of the cable be calculated.
One old sparks showed me hs trick for finding cable volt drop.
Measuring between neutral of the lighting circuit and the neutral of the socket feeding a one kilowatt heater. This gave the voltage drop along the neutral of the cable to the socket without touching a live component. It could be assumed the volt drop along the live would be the same.
C
Coniferman
When you say cold do you mean totally unheated cold or just not as warm as in the evening. It's not just colder because of the temperature of the incoming water being cooler in the morning?
I can't see the point of estimating or calculating anything, especially approximately - this is a fault-finding exercise.bernardgreen said:
Again, assuming things is exactly the wrong thing to be doing here.
Coniferman said:
tuttifruiti said:
The point is to find the voltage drop to see if the fault is an undersized cable resulting in under volts at the shower.
If the local supply is varying in voltage minute by minute then it will be necessary to have two people and mutimeters and read the voltages at the CU and at the shower at the same time.
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