Electricity Suppliers - advice?

[bri160356]

Hi John,
If you opt for the latest offering from Together Energy (Brexit Protect April22) you’ll be paying an extra £18/month compared to your present EON tariff. However, the Together Energy deal is offering you a ‘fixed tariff’ for over 3 years,...which, on the face of it is not bad at all.

However, you could opt for a cheaper fixed tariff deal but at the expense of a much shorter duration. I personally would be looking closely at the ‘fixed’ deals (and Ts&Cs of course!) offered by this lot:

https://symbioenergy.co.uk/

They are an ‘Electricity only’ supplier and plugging your usage etc into their quote system brings up some eye-catching deals. I assume they are a new supplier but I personally wouldn’t be overly concerned about that;...when I switched to YorksEnergy last year they’d only been born a few weeks previously;...then again, that’s just me,...I’m a trail-blazer!

If you want the security of a 2 or 3 year fixed deal you’ll generally pay a premium on the assumption that prices will rise over time and your decision will eventually turn out to be financially prudent;...it may well turn out that way,...conversely, it may not.

However, as the old saying goes ‘you pays yer money and you takes yer choice’.

When it comes to future energy prices the only thing we know for sure,...is that nobody knows for sure!

P.S. Symbioenerergy have a freefone no. 0800 206 2330,...don’t be scared of the dark,...go for it John!

P.P.S. the quotes on the SymbioEnergy website seemed to be very much at odds (favourably!) with the prices shown on CAB.(???)

 

[JohnW2]

Hi John, If you opt for the latest offering from Together Energy (Brexit Protect April22) you’ll be paying an extra £18/month compared to your present EON tariff.

I'm not quite sure where you get that figure from. Even if I use the 9,000 kW/h per year figure, it's only £14 per month more than my present tariff should be costing (but also about £14/month less than if I stayed with E.ON).

In fact, the reality is that my present DD with E.ON is a few pound more than is theoretically necessary for my present plan and usage - so the change I would 'see' would be appreciably less than that £14 increase. In fact, if I use the 8.454 kWh/year figure, the Together Energy deal becomes £107.20 per month - which is roughly what I am actually currently paying - so, if my usage remains unchanged, I would get three more years from Together Energy for roughly what I've actually been paying during 2018/9 - which sounds very attractive.

However, the Together Energy deal is offering you a ‘fixed tariff’ for over 3 years,...which, on the face of it is not bad at all. ... If you want the security of a 2 or 3 year fixed deal you’ll generally pay a premium on the assumption that prices will rise and over time and your decision will eventually turn out to be financially prudent;...it may well turn out that way,...conversely, it may not. .... When it comes to future energy prices the only thing we know for sure,...is that nobody knows for sure!

All true, and the absence of a crystal ball obviously makes it a gamble. Maybe my thinking is being inappropriately influenced by the apparent massive increases in prices this year but, on the face of it, it would not take much in the way of price rises at all for the 3-year deal I'm looking at to be cheaper (over the 3 years) than would be the case if I initially went for the cheapest 1-year deal I could find.

However, you could opt for a cheaper fixed tariff deal but at the expense of a much shorter duration. I personally would be looking closely at the ‘fixed’ deals (and Ts&Cs of course!) offered by this lot: https://symbioenergy.co.uk/ ... They are an ‘Electricity only’ supplier and plugging your usage etc into their quote system brings up some eye-catching deals. I assume they are a new supplier but I personally wouldn’t be overly concerned about that;...

Yes, as you will have seen, they would be offering me just over £90/month for a 1-year deal (for 8,454 kWh, 48% night) - but, of course, that would leave me wondering what I might end up having to pay for the second and third years (with whoever).

I have to decide fairly soon. It looks as if I am going to spend some further time this evening pondering everything I can find 'on offer' and doing some more sums - 'watch this space'!

You didn't answer my question about 'how to switch' - is there any advantage in doing it through a comparison site if the price is the same by going directly to the supplier?

I also wonder whether, in your experience, a new supplier will be prepared to accept an estimated usage (hence DD amount) based on my own precise figures for the immediately-preceding year, or would they base it on my present supplier's estimates? (E.ON are, for some reason, currently estimating my usage as appreciably more than it actually is - hence my 'slightly excessive' DD at the moment).

Kind Regards, John

 

[JohnW2]

However, you could opt for a cheaper fixed tariff deal but at the expense of a much shorter duration. I personally would be looking closely at the ‘fixed’ deals (and Ts&Cs of course!) offered by this lot: https://symbioenergy.co.uk/ They are an ‘Electricity only’ supplier and plugging your usage etc into their quote system brings up some eye-catching deals.

All true, and the absence of a crystal ball obviously makes it a gamble. Maybe my thinking is being inappropriately influenced by the apparent massive increases in prices this year but, on the face of it, it would not take much in the way of price rises at all for the 3-year deal I'm looking at to be cheaper (over the 3 years) than would be the case if I initially went for the cheapest 1-year deal I could find.

It's not as simple as I thought! The difference in price between the cheapest of the 1-year deals and Together's 3-year deal is so large that it's far from clear that the latter would be cheaper (over 3 years).

In the below, I've assumed the Symbio 1-year deal (about the cheapest) for the first year, followed by moving to the cheapest-then-available 1-year deals for the second and third years. I've also assumed that the percentage increase in price from first to second and second to third years will be the same. As can be seen, the 1-year deals result in a lower total cost over three years unless the first-to-second-year and second-to-third-year increases are more than about 16% - and that's without considering the 'cashflow' advantage of the 1-year deals.

I've been conversing with Mr Google for a good while but am struggling to find any useful forecasts for the next three years - but one might suspect that the increases (in cheapest-available 1-year deals) will probably not be over 16% both next year and the year after. What do you (and others) think?

Kind Regards, John

 

[Harry Bloomfield]

As I recently wrote, I got virtually the same figures using my actual postcode.

However, it has just occurred to me that I've been contemplating this issue for several weeks, and have been working with a rough approximate estimate of consumption (9,000 kWh/year, 48% night). I've just looked at the actual figures, and my actual usage during the 12 months to yesterday has been 8,454 with 47.88% at night rate. Using those figures, the ‘Brexit protect April22’ costs £107.16/month (£1,285.97 per year) - which, for the next three years, is very similar to what I am paying currently (and set to 'rise into the clouds' in 4 weeks time if I stay with E.ON)....

... I think I'm coming close to a decision

Kind Regards, John

You need to make your mind up John, it can take four weeks to switch suppliers. It has been a warm winter so my figures are bit lower for this winter. It would be good to see some national consumption figures, against which to compare my weekly consumption figures for heating.

 

[Harry Bloomfield]

You didn't answer my question about 'how to switch' - is there any advantage in doing it through a comparison site if the price is the same by going directly to the supplier?

I doubt there will be much if any difference - the comparison sites will get there few pounds cut from the deal, directly the supplier will pocket the extra few pounds. The CheapEnergyClub site pays you £25 for switching to certain suppliers, providing you stay with them for around 90 days - I just got my £25 back.

 

[JohnW2]

I doubt there will be much if any difference - the comparison sites will get there few pounds cut from the deal, directly the supplier will pocket the extra few pounds. The CheapEnergyClub site pays you £25 for switching to certain suppliers, providing you stay with them for around 90 days - I just got my £25 back.

Yes, I understand that. I was really asking whether, if there is no (or no significant) financial difference, whether there is any other advantage (or the converse) of switching via a comparison site.

Kind Regards, John

 

[JohnW2]

You need to make your mind up John, it can take four weeks to switch suppliers.

Yes, I know - but, as you will have seen, life has become more complicated since I've discovered that 1-year deals are quite probably (financially) preferable to 3-year (or even 2-year) ones.

I've got exactly one month left before my present tarif expires, but it wouldn't be the end of the world if the switch didn't happen until a few days after that.

It has been a warm winter so my figures are bit lower for this winter. It would be good to see some national consumption figures, against which to compare my weekly consumption figures for heating.

Indeed. For some reason which I don't fully understand, my usage seems to have been appreciably lower since Christmas (and, as you can see, Christmas has a major impact on electricity consumption in my house!). These are daily figures for the past year, and "Total Total" means all phases and day+night. Sorry about the colour of the curve!

Kind Regards, John

 

[Harry Bloomfield]

Indeed. For some reason which I don't fully understand, my usage seems to have been appreciably lower since Christmas (and, as you can see, Christmas has a major impact on electricity consumption in my house!). These are daily figures for the past year, and "Total Total" means all phases and day+night. Sorry about the colour of the curve!

Your graph, apart from the Christmas spike, closely follows my own gas consumption graph for the same period, so probably effects of the weather. My electric bill is much more regular, increasing as winters dark progressed then reducing with the lighter days.

 

[JohnW2]

Your graph, apart from the Christmas spike, closely follows my own gas consumption graph for the same period, so probably effects of the weather. My electric bill is much more regular, increasing as winters dark progressed then reducing with the lighter days.

Given that lighting is pretty trivial these days, the only thing likely to be particularly seasonal about my electricity usage is the (night-time) water heating, which amounts for around a third of my total electricity consumption - and that shows an ~2 kWh/day Winter-Summer difference..

The following is a plot (7-day moving averages, to iron out some of the noise) of that usage and also of mean daily temp (from MET office records) ('upside-down' plot - see axis), showing the relationship between the two (my very-well-lagged cylinder is in a not-very-heated part of the house). The dotted vertical line indicates where I considerably increased the (already fairly considerable) amount of lagging, just under a year ago, and that seems to have reduced my consumption by something around 2 kWh/day.

Kind Regards, John

 

[bri160356]

Yes, I understand that. I was really asking whether, if there is no (or no significant) financial difference, whether there is any other advantage (or the converse) of switching via a comparison site.

Kind Regards, John

Some of the larger companies offer cash-back when you go through certain comparison sites and occasionally there are exclusive offers that can only be accessed through the comparison sites.

Site like MSE’s Cheap Energy Club sometimes arrange what they call ‘collective switching deals’ but they are quite rare these days.

The ‘minnow’ energy suppliers don’t generally offer incentives like cash-back and exclusive deals through certain websites;...they don’t like giving cash away and they certainly don’t like paying large amounts of commission to price comparison websites;...the minnows prefer let their ‘cheap’ tariffs do the talking.

So, to answer your question, when looking at companies such as Together and Symbio et al there is no advantage to accessing them through a comparison website as opposed to accessing said energy company directly. The comparison sites won’t give you access to preferential tariff rates that would otherwise be hidden. The comparison sites generally provide a link to the various ‘minnow’ energy suppliers websites but it’s nothing more than that. CAB doesn’t even provide a link,...just an address.

When you finally decide to ‘switch’ the energy company will accept your usage estimates at face value and they will set-up a D/D commensurate with the info you provide. Most, if not all, require a months D/D payment in advance, usually payable within a day or so of your official switch-over date.

Provided your usage estimate is accurate’ish (mine always is) then your D/D payment should in theory remain stable. Some companies are quite happy to let your D/D drift along throughout the year and leave it untouched;...others are more proactive at altering the D/D (up or down) every couple of months if they deem it necessary.

Once you’ve selected your new supplier/tariff the switching process will take between 3 to 5 weeks;...the tariff you choose when you sign-up with your new supplier is the tariff you will actually get, even if said tariff is withdrawn from sale before your switch-over date.

If your present tariff has ‘early exit fees’ they are not enforceable during the last 50 days of your contract. That’s an OFGEM ruling and applies to every supplier/contract.

And at the risk of repeating myself;...if you see a tariff that appeals, go for it;...it probably won’t be there for long.

 

[JohnW2]

Some of the larger companies offer cash-back when you go through certain comparison sites and occasionally there are exclusive offers that can only be accessed through the comparison sites. ... So, to answer your question, when looking at companies such as Together and Symbio et al there is no advantage to accessing them through a comparison website as opposed to accessing said energy company directly.....

Thanks, that's all I wanted to know. I had already taken into account things like cash-backs, and was merely asking whether, if the same deal was available at essentially the same (overall) cost via a comparison site and directly with the supplier, whether there was any advantage of one or the other approach - and you have answered that. I suppose I was wondering whether there was any sense in which the switch might 'go more smoothly' with one approach than the other - and you appear to be saying 'no'. Thanks.

When you finally decide to ‘switch’ the energy company will accept your usage estimates at face value and they will set-up a D/D commensurate with the info you provide. Most, if not all, require a months D/D payment in advance, usually payable within a day or so of your official switch-over date. ... Provided your usage estimate is accurate’ish (mine always is) then your D/D payment should in theory remain stable. Some companies are quite happy to let your D/D drift along throughout the year and leave it untouched;...others are more proactive at altering the D/D (up or down) every couple of months if they deem it necessary.

Thanks again - that answers my other question. I obviously cannot swear that my usage won't, for some reason, change in the future, but it's been pretty stable foir at least a couple of years, and I have very detailed records to demonstrate that (if anyone ever needs to see it)

Once you’ve selected your new supplier/tariff the switching process will take between 3 to 5 weeks;...the tariff you choose when you sign-up with your new supplier is the tariff you will actually get, even if said tariff is withdrawn from sale before your switch-over date.

Thanks. That's good to know.

And at the risk of repeating myself;...if you see a tariff that appeals, go for it;...it probably won’t be there for long.

You don't need to tell me - one of my current nightmares is that I have to update 'my spreadsheet' every day. As for where I am in the decision process, I think I'm getting there ....

Symbio are pretty uniquely cheap, but I'm a bit nervous about them. They have a very flashy website, implying that they are 'saving the world' from an energy crisis, but I find little evidence that they have done anything - at least, until extremely recently. It doesn't look as if they started supplying electricity until last December, even if then (I can find only 2 reviews, one of which says that the author was a 'long standing customer, which is clearly a lie!).

The most recently filed Symbio Accounts are for the year to 31 December 2017, when they were not trading, and indicated that they then had £101 in the bank and net liabilities of about £2.6 million - and those net liabilities would be nearer £10 million were they not valuing their intangible assets (virtually all of which are 'goodwill') at around £7 million. I realise that I would not lose financially if they went bust, but could do without the hassle of that - and a company with 'financial difficulties' is also probably more likely to be problematic in terms of setting/adjusting DDs etc.

I was probably being a little 'greedy in considering Symbio, who are almost uniquely cheap at the moment. If I ignore them, then the 1-year/3-year comparison graph I presented becomes much less dramatic, and hence the possible down-sides of a 2-year or 3-year fixed-price deal much less.

A compromise could be a 2-year (or 1.5 year) deal, a good few of which are available and many at a price quite similar to many of the 1-year deals (at least a couple of 2-year deals are actually cheaper than 1-year ones from the same company!), and similar (or even lower) than what I am currently paying. The situation is obviously changing by the day (or minute), but the deals I've currently got in my spreadsheet are (with approx monthly DDs):

Together Energy 3-year - £107.20

Together Energy 2-year - £102.55
ESB 2-year - £101.06
Zebra Power 2-year - £102.81
iSupplyEnergy 1.5-years - £102.90

Engie 1.5 years - £105.97
Bristol Energy 2-year - £106.06
Powershop 2-year - £106.52

I need to ponder a bit more about the 3-year deal but there is clearly very little to chose, price-wise, between any of the four in my middle group above. I'm personally inclined towards the first two (Together and ESB) - but wonder if you have any thoughts?

I would add that the small print of many of the deals (including Symbio) includes a requirement to have smart meter, although (unlike some!) I'm not concerned about that.

Thanks for your ongoing support!!

Kind Regards, John

 

[JohnW2]

The situation is obviously changing by the day (or minute), but the deals I've currently got in my spreadsheet are (with approx monthly DDs):

Together Energy 3-year - £107.20

Together Energy 2-year - £102.55
ESB 2-year - £101.06
Zebra Power 2-year - £102.81
iSupplyEnergy 1.5-years - £102.90

Engie 1.5 years - £105.97
Bristol Energy 2-year - £106.06
Powershop 2-year - £106.52

I've found a few more ....

Ovo 2-year - £104.48
Green Energy Network 2-year - £98.01
Engie 2.5 years - £105.97 (same price as for 1.5 years, above)

... the hunt continues.

Edit: P.S. The box on the MoneySavingExpert site that one can tick to see all available tariffs (rather than just those available through the site) appears to have disappeared!

Kind Regards, John

 

[bri160356]

I've found a few more ....

Ovo 2-year - £104.48
Green Energy Network 2-year - £98.01
Engie 2.5 years - £105.97 (same price as for 1.5 years, above)

... the hunt continues.

Edit: P.S. The box on the MoneySavingExpert site that one can tick to see all available tariffs (rather than just those available through the site) appears to have disappeared!

Kind Regards, John

I’m actually seriously considering ditching my dual-fuel fixed price deal (active since last summer) with Yorks.Energy and switching to separate suppliers for gas and leccy;

...I’ve looked at this option a number of times in the past but it’s never been financially prudent for me switch from dual-fuel to separate suppliers,...until SymbioEnergy came along!

“Symbio Energy 2 Months Advance Payment March 2020 Tariff v1”, 12mth fixed tariff, no exit fees,...saves me £40 a year on leccy alone ,...but more importantly it gives me a further 12 months at a cheaper rate than I’m presently paying.

I might switch my gas supply to “UtilityPoint UP Variable Direct Feb19”;....unfortunately that’s a variable tariff and will only save me a paltry £6 a year on gas alone ,..but no exit fees;...so overall I can wing it for another 12 months I reckon.

I’ve switched a number of times to new ‘minnow’ companies like Symbio and although I can understand your reticence,...I don’t share it;

...but as I said before,...I’m a trail-blazer,...I like to live dangerously!

 

[JohnW2]

I’m actually seriously considering ditching my dual-fuel fixed price deal (active since last summer) with Yorks.Energy and switching to separate suppliers for gas and leccy; ...I’ve looked at this option a number of times in the past but it’s never been financially prudent for me switch from dual-fuel to separate suppliers,...until SymbioEnergy came along! .... “Symbio Energy 2 Months Advance Payment March 2020 Tariff v1”, 12mth fixed tariff, no exit fees,...saves me £40 a year on leccy alone ,...but more importantly it gives me a further 12 months at a cheaper rate than I’m presently paying.

At least that's one problem/decision that I don't have to contend with ...

... I'm stuck with LPG, and that is a whole different (and much more expensive) business. Mind you, at the last count I did very well. When I threatened to switch from Calor (which is now relatively easy {there used to be nonsense about having to have the tank replaced etc.}, albeit there are only a few potential suppliers), they instantly halved my price per litre, for 2 years! However, that 2 years is up in December, so it remains to be seen whether I can achieve siumilar again!

I’ve switched a number of times to new ‘minnow’ companies like Symbio and although I can understand your reticence,...I don’t share it;

It's not 'minnows', per se, which concern me - I have more specific concerns in the case of Symbio.

In my day job I have, over the years, frequently found myself working for client companies that were start-ups in a field in which there would inevitably be a very long lag-period before they would have any income, and I've seen this pattern before. Symbio have been in existence since 2012 yet by the end of 2017 there was no evidence that they had ever had any real income and had totted up liabilities of at least £2.6 million. They have also now lost all but one of their directors - which may or may not mean something. Ironically, I would probably be less concerned if their website was not so 'impressive' - since I have seen only too often the situation of start-up companies that had, and were trying to promote, totally unrealistic 'very grand ideas', long before they have actually achieving anything - and, needless to say, most of those companies end up going bust.

...but as I said before,...I’m a trail-blazer,...I like to live dangerously!

I'm also a relatively 'risk-taking' person and, in any event, as I've said, I don't really stand to lose very much (other than peace of mind) if I go with a company which doesn't survive. Some of those I'm considering probably qualify as 'minnows' but, as I've said, that in itself does not put me off.

I suppose the main balls I'm currently juggling are the 2-year deals from Together Energy and ESB (and maybe, still, the Together 3-year deal), neither of whom have appreciable track records. If you were faced with that choice (or, indeed, any of the others I've mentioned) would you be appreciably drawn in any particular direction?

Kind Regards, John

 

[Harry Bloomfield]

I’ve switched a number of times to new ‘minnow’ companies like Symbio and although I can understand your reticence,...I don’t share it;

...but as I said before,...I’m a trail-blazer,...I like to live dangerously!

Nor I, you pick your supplier and take your chances. I don't live quite as dangerously as bri, I just generally pick the cheapest supplier and switch one per year, generally setting up the switch four weeks before my current contract ends, so as not to incur the extra cost of a new fix charges.