Electricity Suppliers - advice?

[JohnW2]

True;....once you’ve mastered the intricacies of the energy comparison/switching game it really is a friend for life.

Maybe, but I still very much doubt that many people will be as lucky as Harry - I've certainly never noticed a supplier introducing a new tariff that was cheaper than their existing ones!

It’s the countless thousands of customers (many elderly and ‘vulnerable’) still languishing on SVT’s that I feel sorry for.

I don't know how typical/representative E.ON are but, as I have observed, the days of 'very expensive SVTs' seem to have gone for them. As I've said, the SVT they are currently offering me is exactly the same price per kWh as the cheapest deal (1 year fixed) they are offering me, the only difference being that the Standing charge for the SVT is about 6.6 pence per day more.

Kind Regards, John

 

[JohnW2]

An update, and a question.

ESB have confirmed that they don't need me to tell them about my current supplier. That is clearly true, and the switch is clearly progressing, since I have now received a "Sorry to be losing you" (and "wouldn't you like to re-consider?"!) e-mail from E.ON!

ESB now seem to be saying categorically that I will be switched on 10th April, but I'm not sure how certain anyone can be about that. That date would be 17 days after I applied, and they initially said that it would take "up to 17 days".

If it does happen on 10th April, that will be several days before my next E.ON DD would be due to be collected, and I wonder if anyone knows what they are likely to do. I've already turned the DD amount down to the lowest I can do on-line but, if they collect that amount (after my supply has been switched away from them), it will put my account well into credit. Assuming I can, I will provide them with a 'final' meter reading on the day of the switch - so that, in theory, they would be able to just collect the small amount that will be payable up to that date. Does anyone know, from experience, how suppliers usually handle this situation (I fear I can guess )?

Kind Regards, John

 

[Laurence Harvey]

Maybe, but I still very much doubt that many people will be as lucky as Harry - I've certainly never noticed a supplier introducing a new tariff that was cheaper than their existing ones!
I don't know how typical/representative E.ON are but, as I have observed, the days of 'very expensive SVTs' seem to have gone for them. As I've said, the SVT they are currently offering me is exactly the same price per kWh as the cheapest deal (1 year fixed) they are offering me, the only difference being that the Standing charge for the SVT is about 6.6 pence per day more.

Kind Regards, John

There’s no maybe about it John ;...people who don’t know how to seek out the best deals on a regular or annual basis are the ones who are paying the most,...and that includes the poor sods paying SVT.

OFGEM have been trying to bring the SVT levels under control for donkeys years and last years price capping certainly had some beneficial effects for consumers;....the energy suppliers (Big6 in particular) hated that particular piece of legislation. It even de-railed a planned merger (SSE/Npower) that would have seen the Big6 reduced to the Big5.

The Big6 currently have approx 83% of UK consumers and they still have huge numbers of SVT customers. I’ve not seen any recent figures but just a couple of years ago E.On showed that 73% of their 3M+ customers were on SVT’s...£££££’s!!! lovely jubbly!

I assume (hope!) that figure of 73% has reduced in recent times but I’d be surprised if the reduction is major. The difference between the best tariffs and SVT’s has definitely shrunk due to the recent legislation,...but SVT’s are still lucrative,...but perhaps not quite the cash-cow they once were.

 

[winston1]

If it does happen on 10th April, that will be several days before my next E.ON DD would be due to be collected, and I wonder if anyone knows what they are likely to do.

They WILL take it. You will complain, and they will say we will refund (in a month) when we have worked out the figures. This has just happened to me when I switched telecom providers.

My advice is to cancel the DD before this can happen, and tell them you have done so.

 

[winston1]

Just read that First Utility is to be renamed Shell Energy and that customers will get discounts on Shell forecourts. Whether this will make motor fuel any cheaper than the likes of Asda I don't know.

 

[bri160356]

An update, and a question.

Assuming I can, I will provide them with a 'final' meter reading on the day of the switch - so that, in theory, they would be able to just collect the small amount that will be payable up to that date. Does anyone know, from experience, how suppliers usually handle this situation (I fear I can guess )?

Kind Regards, John

Differently!

17 days is pretty quick btw;...probably expedited because you’re leccy only. After the official switch-over day you’ll enter an indeterminate period of administrative limbo.

Whether EON take a final D/D after your official switch-over date is a bit of a grey area and seems to vary from supplier to supplier. Do you pay EON in arrears or advance?

Give your new suppler your final leccy read on switch-over day and you need do nothing further;...your new supplier will send your meter reading off to the meter reading verification company and the verified reading will eventually return to them;...the meter verification process is mandatory and cannot be circumvented or hastened.

However, you certainly can supply the final meter reading to EON if you wish but they will not prepare your final bill until they receive confirmation that your final meter reading has been officially verified.

I’d imagine that if you do supply the final reading to Eon (and ring them at the same time!) you may be able to head them off at the pass and prevent them taking another D/D,....assuming that they were actually going to take another D/D of course. I guess it’s only Eon that can definitively answer your question.

The conventional wisdom is that whatever happens do not cancel your D/D,...let the administration process run its course no matter how laboured it gets. You’ll always get you credit refunded,...but it can take a while.

During my last switch the losing supplier (Avro) didn’t take any further D/D’s after my switch-over date albeit that I was in credit at that point. From the official switch-over date to receiving my final bill and credit refund was about 9 weeks though! The extended delay was purely down to the gas meter verification process,...nothing the losing or gaining supplier could do about that.

‘Losing’ suppliers have different regimes though,...some can, and do, take further D/Ds as a matter of course after the switch-over date. I could be wrong (often am!) but there are no OFGEM rules to cover this particular issue.

P.S. if they’ve confirmed that your switch-over date is April 10th then it’s pretty much set in stone. Barring something serious/unforeseen no reason why that date will change.

 

[JohnW2]

They WILL take it. You will complain, and they will say we will refund (in a month) when we have worked out the figures.

We'll see. As I've reported before, at least as far as existing (continuing) customers are concerned, E.ON seem to be incredibly good with refunds. As I've reported, if a (6-monthly) bill shows a credit balance >£50 they refund it immediately, and it's usually been back in my account by the time I've received/seen the bill.

Of course, their system may well be 'less efficient' when a customer is leaving. I'll let you all know.

Kind Regards, John

 

[JohnW2]

...people who don’t know how to seek out the best deals on a regular or annual basis are the ones who are paying the most,...

Well, yes, that goes without saying, and ...

...and that includes the poor sods paying SVT.

That is probably also true.

The Big6 currently have approx 83% of UK consumers and they still have huge numbers of SVT customers. I’ve not seen any recent figures but just a couple of years ago E.On showed that 73% of their 3M+ customers were on SVT’s...£££££’s!!! lovely jubbly! .... The difference between the best tariffs and SVT’s has definitely shrunk due to the recent legislation,...but SVT’s are still lucrative,...but perhaps not quite the cash-cow they once were.

Well, for fairly obvious reasons, I didn't bother looking at the rest of the 'Big6' - but, as I reported, E.ONs currently-offered tariffs show little difference - as I said, just a 6.6p per day difference between the SVT and the cheapest deal on offer.

Kind Regards, John

 

[bri160356]

We'll see. As I've reported before, at least as far as existing (continuing) customers are concerned, E.ON seem to be incredibly good with refunds. As I've reported, if a (6-monthly) bill shows a credit balance >£50 they refund it immediately, and it's usually been back in my account by the time I've received/seen the bill.

Of course, their system may well be 'less efficient' when a customer is leaving. I'll let you all know.

Kind Regards, John

I don’t think you’ll have any major issues with E.On;...indeed many (but not all!) of the switch-over ‘issues’ seemingly stem from a lack of understanding of how the system operates rather than legitimate gripes.

My son switched from Eon to Avro, and my daughter from EDF to Avro at the end of last year;...no issues whatsoever regarding additional D/Ds or credit refunds. I know this for a fact because both switches were administered by yours truly.

 

[JohnW2]

17 days is pretty quick btw;...probably expedited because you’re leccy only. After the official switch-over day you’ll enter an indeterminate period of administrative limbo. .... P.S. if they’ve confirmed that your switch-over date is April 10th then it’s pretty much set in stone. Barring something serious/unforeseen no reason why that date will change.

I'm not convinced about the actual date. The initial documentation I received, very soon after applying to switch (see below), appeared to be 'generic' (i.e. the same they would send to any new customer) and, as you can see, culminated in the statement that on Day 17 I will "be an ESB customer". When I queried this, I received an e-mail which said "...Your go live date will be the 10th...".

Whether EON take a final D/D after your official switch-over date is a bit of a grey area and seems to vary from supplier to supplier. Do you pay EON in arrears or advance?

I don't think that's a question to which there is a simple answer!

My DD has been on a fixed day of the month for years, but their 'accounting years' seem to move around a little (if they have been given a meter reading within a couple of weeks or so of the date they prepare a bill, they seem to take the bill just up to that date, but otherwise they estimate the reading). As a consequence, the relationship between the date of billing and the date of DDs varies ...

... if, for the purpose if argument, a bill showed a zero balance, then if a DD were due to be collected the next day, then I would effectively be paying in advance. However, if a DD has been collected the day before the date of the bill, then I would effectively be paying in arrears - since the next DD would not be until ~1 month after I had started using electricity 'for the year'.

By my estimation, come 10th April I will owe them about £46. My next DD is due to be collected on 16th and, as I've reported, I've turned that down as far as I can on-line (to £93) - so, if they do collect it, they should owe me a refund of around £47.

I’d imagine that if you do supply the final reading to Eon (and ring them at the same time!) you may be able to head them off at the pass and prevent them taking another D/D,....assuming that they were actually going to take another D/D of course. I guess it’s only Eon that can definitively answer your question. ... The conventional wisdom is that whatever happens do not cancel your D/D,...let the administration process run its course no matter how laboured it gets. You’ll always get you credit refunded,...but it can take a while.

Indeed, despite some of the suggestions here, cancelling my DD is not something I've been contemplating. As above, I will owe them a little on changeover day, so it really remains to be seen whether they take the 'full' amount of the DD (now £93) or a figure based on the changeover day meter reading. If the former, then I will probably 'have words' with them in an attempt to ensure that they don't attempt to take any subsequent payments (despite their owing me a small refund!)!

‘Losing’ suppliers have different regimes though,...some can, and do, take further D/Ds as a matter of course after the switch-over date. I could be wrong (often am!) but there are no OFGEM rules to cover this particular issue.

We'll see. I may even be 'pleasantly surprised' since, as I recently wrote, E.ON appear to have been surprisingly good/efficient in making refunds whilst I have been a customer.

As for 'OFGEM rules', I obviously don't know, but in terms of the law in general (and maybe also the DD rules/laws), I imagine that they would probably be on fairly thin ice if they continued to 'collect' money from a customer (by DD) when it was clear that they actually owed the customer money!

Kind Regards, John

 

[bri160356]

As for 'OFGEM rules', I obviously don't know, but in terms of the law in general (and maybe also the DD rules/laws), I imagine that they would probably be on fairly thin ice if they continued to 'collect' money from a customer (by DD) when it was clear that they actually owed the customer money!

Kind Regards, John

I’d imagine that the energy companies who do take D/Ds after switch-over will probably argue that until the final bill is calculated it's unclear how much is owed by either party;

...and of course, the final bill can’t be definitively calculated until the switch-over meter readings are officially verified.

There is certainly scope for a few weeks more money-grabbing.

 

[JohnW2]

I’d imagine that the energy companies who do take D/Ds after switch-over will probably argue that until the final bill is calculated it's unclear how much is owed by either party;

I suppose that they might well do.

...and of course, the final bill can’t be definitively calculated until the switch-over meter readings are officially verified.

I have to say that I don't fully understand what this 'verification process' is all about, or what the 'process' actually involves - so maybe I need some more education!

Whilst being supplied by E.ON, the last time I saw a meter reader was in January 2017 - and even that, I think, only because I had fairly recently had my meter changed (prior to that, the most recent appearances of meter readers had been in October 2013 and April 2015). Since then, E.ON have seemingly been happy to bill me on the basis of readings I have provided, and that presumably would have continued into the future if I had stayed with them. I therefore don't really understand why 'the final bill' is really any different from any other bill they have produced in recent years.

Do you have any idea what the 'verification process' actually involves and what it is based on? I have provided E.ON with readings at least monthly for the past several years - and that data may be available to the 'verifier'. My house is sufficiently atypical that 'the verifier' would have serious difficulties in finding any 'comparable property in my area' (even if they had any clue about what my property is - which they probably wouldn't) - and if they tried looking at 'average electricity consumption in my area', they would merely discover that my consumption was considerably 'above average' - so I can't see that any of that would help them to 'verify my final meter reading'. I'd therefore be very interested to learn a bit about how on earth this 'verification process' works (or is meant to work).

As I've said before, if the previous and/or new supplier wants an accurate meter reading on the day of a changeover (which obviously makes sense, for both of them), the obvious way of achieving it would surely be to send someone to read the meter? Whilst it might be logistically difficult/expensive to do that on precisely the changeover day, a reading within a few days of that date would surely be adequate to 'verify' the changeover-date reading given by the customer?

Kind Regards, John

 

[bri160356]

Do you have any idea what the 'verification process' actually involves and what it is based on? I have provided E.ON with readings at least monthly for the past several years - and that data may be available to the 'verifier'. My house is sufficiently atypical that 'the verifier' would have serious difficulties in finding any 'comparable property in my area' (even if they had any clue about what my property is - which they probably wouldn't) - and if they tried looking at 'average electricity consumption in my area', they would merely discover that my consumption was considerably 'above average' - so I can't see that any of that would help them to 'verify my final meter reading'. I'd therefore be very interested to learn a bit about how on earth this 'verification process' works (or is meant to work).

As I've said before, if the previous and/or new supplier wants an accurate meter reading on the day of a changeover (which obviously makes sense, for both of them), the obvious way of achieving it would surely be to send someone to read the meter? Whilst it might be logistically difficult/expensive to do that on precisely the changeover day, a reading within a few days of that date would surely be adequate to 'verify' the changeover-date reading given by the customer?

Kind Regards, John

You’re perhaps over thinking the final meter reading verification procedure John.

It’s merely a process, carried out by official OFGEM licensed verifiers for both gas and leccy, designed to ensure a smooth and harmonious customer transition from one supplier to another,...albeit a process that introduces an inherent delay.

It will highlight and correct (as near as possible) genuine customer ‘meter reading’ errors. It prevents customers submitting deliberate false readings in an attempt to gain a financial advantage. It provides tangible meter readings for those customers who, for whatever reason, fail to provide ‘final meter readings’ to a gaining supplier.

It prevents disputes between all parties concerned;...the losing and gaining suppliers (and ultimately the customer) are duty bound by OFGEM legislation to accept the verified meter readings.

If you supply an accurate final meter reading there is absolutely no reason why the verifiers would change it!...they look at your previous ‘actual’ meter readings and assess (estimate!) what your final reading should be. There is a certain percentage leeway (up and down) in the verifiers calculations and if your reading falls within those limits then YOUR reading is the one they use. In all the switches I’ve been involved with I’ve never had a final-reading that was altered by the verifiers.

 

[JohnW2]

You’re perhaps over thinking the final meter reading verification procedure John.

I'm not sure that 'over-thinking' is the right phrase - rather, I'm trying to discover 'how it's done' and what on earth purpose it serves in the vast majority of cases ...

It’s merely a process, carried out by official OFGEM licensed verifiers for both gas and leccy, designed to ensure a smooth and harmonious customer transition from one supplier to another,...albeit a process that introduces an inherent delay. ... It will highlight and correct (as near as possible) genuine customer ‘meter reading’ errors. It prevents customers submitting deliberate false readings in an attempt to gain a financial advantage.

Yes, I understand all that, and it makes sense. However, I don't really understand how a third party can even attempt to do that ...

... as I implied, my present supplier is in by far the best position to confirm that the final meter reading I give them is unlikely to be either erroneous or fraudulent - they have meter readings from me, at least once per month, going back over a number of years, so any 'oddity' in relation to the final reading I gave them would stick out like a sore thumb.

I am at a loss to understand how any third party would be in any better a position to make that judgement. If my present supplier gave them all my historic readings, they could base their judgement on that - but that would be no different from what the supplier could do themselves.

It prevents disputes between all parties concerned;...the losing and gaining suppliers (and ultimately the customer) are duty bound by OFGEM legislation to accept the verified meter readings.

Again, I fully understand that, and agree that it makes sense, but it doesn't help me to understand how this third party reaches its conclusion - I still do not understand what information (short of sending out a meter reader) the 'verifier' would/could/does use in order to 'verify' the correctness of a meter reading.

From the fact that no-one has jumped in, I suspect that no-one here actually knows - are you aware of any on-line information about how this 'verifying process' actually works?

If you supply an accurate final meter reading there is absolutely no reason why the verifiers would change it!...they look at your previous ‘actual’ meter readings and assess (estimate!) what your final reading should be. There is a certain percentage leeway (up and down) in the verifiers calculations and if your reading falls within those limits then YOUR reading is the one they use.

I'm not in the slightest concerned, merely intrigued to know 'how they (attempt to) do it'! As above, the present supplier would seem to be in by far the best position to judge how reasonable is the customer's 'final meter reading', so I certainly don't see why (if it is reasonable) the verification should be required before they (the 'previous supplier) can produce their 'final bill'.

The new supplier may be more fussy/concerned - but, again, I still don't really understand how a third party can give them any more useful information than could the 'previous supplier'. As I keep saying, if they have concerns, they should surely send out a meter reader?

Kind Regards, John

 

[bri160356]

I'm not in the slightest concerned, merely intrigued to know 'how they (attempt to) do it'! As above, the present supplier would seem to be in by far the best position to judge how reasonable is the customer's 'final meter reading', so I certainly don't see why (if it is reasonable) the verification should be required before they (the 'previous supplier) can produce their 'final bill'.

The new supplier may be more fussy/concerned - but, again, I still don't really understand how a third party can give them any more useful information than could the 'previous supplier'. As I keep saying, if they have concerns, they should surely send out a meter reader?

Kind Regards, John

The losing suppliers aren’t concerned about the final meter readings you submit or passing on, to anybody, what they (or you) consider to be accurate readings based on what you, their customer, has just supplied,...they have a mandated process to take care of that for them. They don’t need to do anything except wait for the verified reading. Why would they make work for themselves!

It’s easy for them,...why get involved in a process of passing on readings, or estimating readings, that could embroil them in a dispute over a few quid. I’m not saying it’s ideal but the meter reading verification process, like it or loathe, works,...eventually!

They verifiers act as honest-brokers and go-betweens. Sure the losing supplier has all the info required to assess the veracity of your final-reading and there is probably nobody better placed to do that task,... but the ‘verifiers’ also have access to that info.

There are lots of ways that final readings could be assessed and ‘verified’,...but Ofgem have mandated this particular verification process,...we can rant about it till we’re blue in the face but it’s here to stay. The losing and gaining suppliers are certainly at peace with it.

Customers can dispute verified readings if they wish,...but apart from extreme cases there is little to be gained by doing that, imo.

Have a glance at this John,...it's an overview of the verification process...if you’ve not already seen it that is.

https://www.so.energy/so/help-and-advice/faq/switching-to-us/Opening-Read-Validation