Extract Fan Dilemma

[EFLImpudence]

the instructions must explicitly state suitability for installation in Zone 1.

701.55 does not say that.

"In zone 1, only the following fixed and permanently connected current-using equipment shall be installed, provided
it is suitable for installation in zone 1 according to the manufacturer’s instructions:"

 

[JohnW2]

..... John says that according to the good book, the instructions must explicitly state suitability for installation in Zone 1.

701.55 does not say that. .... "In zone 1, only the following fixed and permanently connected current-using equipment shall be installed, provided
it is suitable for installation in zone 1 according to the manufacturer’s instructions:"

I'm a bit lost - are you perhaps just quibbling about my having included the word "explicitly", which seems to be the only difference between what I wrote and what 701.55 says?

I personally cannot think of a way of interpreting that reg which doesn't meant that the MIs have to 'explicitly' say that the item is suitable for installation in Zone 1. 'Silence' in relation to the issue is surely not enough. As I wrote last night ...

..... Not saying that it is not suitable is not the same as saying that it IS suitable . The instructions presumably don't say that it is not suitable for Zone 0, either, but I would hope that you would not regard it as acceptable in Zone 0 (even if it were RCD protected and IPX4), would you?

Could you perhaps explain your viewpoint/interpretation? Thanks.

 

[Harry Bloomfield]

I have a small en-suite, around 1.7m x 1.6m.

Currently, there is a Vent Axia 4" fan in the wall opposite the shower enclosure.

It extracts 108 m³/h.

The en-suite gets steamy and the wall near the fan gets damp.

I've just been quite involved with my bathroom extract, recently. First let me say, we have zero moisture/mould issues at all, in the bathroom, despite using it for very regular baths and showers. Layout is bathroom on the lee side of the house (north/east corner), fan mounted on north facing wall, window faces east. Open the window, and if it's windy, air is sucked out. Bath, with electric shower above, is installed alongside the north wall, shower at the west end. The 4" fan is mounted high on the north wall, at the opposite end to the shower.

Originally, the bathroom had one of those silly window mounted vents installed, with a propeller. When I installed DG, I thought it best to add a proper electric fan, to ensure there was ventilation, to avoid any mould - but I only did half a job....

There had been a through the wall vent there before, except filled and plastered over on the inside, with a double brick vent on the outside. So I simply drilled through from the outside, to reopen the hole up, to fit a fan. Rather than fit a proper cowl to the outside, I made the poor decision to simply drill the holes in the air brick, much larger, and add a plastic pipe to line it through the cavity. It was a bad decision, because it caused lots of back pressure, making the fan much less effective. Besides which, I was struggling single-handed, and coping with an ill partner. Nonetheless, there was no problem with mould, so it remained like that for over a decade.

That fan, stopped working in the spring, not really a problem at that time, because the window would generally be open anyway, but a week or two back, I got a roundtuit to investigate the fault. An easy fix, just a failed resistor, in the supply to the controller. It is a PIR/timer/humidity triggered fan.

Having repaired that, I realised how poor the extract flow was, so I then set about (with Avril's help), knocking a hole through the air brick, and fitting a proper cowl, and sealed pipe on the outside.

Whether by design, or fortunate accident, I see that all the homes on this road, are laid out, despite five different designs of layout, including both sides of the road - with their bathrooms on the lee side of the house.

So I would suggest that the wind direction has quite a large part to play in keeping bathrooms free of moisture and mould.

 

[EFLImpudence]

I'm a bit lost - are you perhaps just quibbling about my having included the word "explicitly", which seems to be the only difference between what I wrote and what 701.55 says?

Well, that depends what exactly you mean by 'explicitly'.

Clearly you have confusion and doubt so not explicit - but I do not.

If you mean that it has to actually say the words 'item suitable for zone 1' then no, it does not say that.
However, it says it is suitable for bathrooms and is IPX4 which is what is required by 7671 for fitting in zone 1, so is actually 'explicit'.

I personally cannot think of a way of interpreting that reg which doesn't meant that the MIs have to 'explicitly' say that the item is suitable for installation in Zone 1. 'Silence' in relation to the issue is surely not enough. As I wrote last night ...

I disagree, listing the requirements necessary for zone 1 is not silence.
Would you require the manufacturer to state that the product is also suitable for zone 2?

Could you perhaps explain your viewpoint/interpretation? Thanks.

Done.

 

[securespark]

Well, I thought so, but John seems to disagree!

 

[JohnW2]

Well, that depends what exactly you mean by 'explicitly'. .... Clearly you have confusion and doubt so not explicit - but I do not.

As I suspected, basically just a quibble about words! If it helps (as as you suggest yourself below), just change my word "explicitly!" to "actually".

I have absolutely no 'confusion or doubt'. The simple fact is that if the MIs do not actually state that the item is 'suitable for installation in Zone 1" - which is what BS7671 requires.

If you mean that it has to actually say the words 'item suitable for zone 1' then no, it does not say that.

As above, I disagree. If you don't think it means that, what DO you think it means?

However, it says it is suitable for bathrooms and is IPX4 which is what is required by 7671 for fitting in zone 1, so is actually 'explicit'.

.... except that 701.55 actually says "... provided it is suitable for installation in zone 1 according to the manufacturer’s instructions:

The MIs saying that it is "suitable for bathrooms" obviously does not mean "suitable for all Zones of bathrooms", since IPX4 is not adequate for Zone 0. The manufacturer might feel, for whatever reason, that it was only suitable for Zone 2.

Would you require the manufacturer to state that the product is also suitable for zone 2?

If BS7671 actually stated that as a requirement, then yes (but it obviously doesn't)

This is all rather silly. As I've said, I personally would not care a jot about having contravened the literal wording of the regs in this case. However, in commenting on the fact that 10mm of plastic being <2.25m above FFL, secure seemed to be wanting "total 'strict compliance with the every word of BS7671!", which is why I have been pointing out to him what the words of BS7671 "actually say".

 

[JohnW2]

Well, I thought so, but John seems to disagree!

In terms of the actual wording of BS7671, I do disagree.

However, as I've said, I don't personally care a jot about any of this, any more than I would (again personally) regard something as being in Zone 1 because some plastic (but not electrical) bits of the item were <2.225m below FFL I would therefore (personally) regard it as being ';out of zones', in which case this entire discussion would be moot!

 

[EFLImpudence]

As I suspected, basically just a quibble about words! If it helps (as as you suggest yourself below), just change my word "explicitly!" to "actually".

It would be better because they do not actually say that but what they do say means that.

The simple fact is that if the MIs do not actually state that the item is 'suitable for installation in Zone 1" - which is what BS7671 requires.

The simple fact is that the MIs do state what BS7671 requires.