Fixing bolt to wall

[Deleted member 174758]

The very first masonry drills, did actually need to be sharp, because the drill action was mostly like a conventional steel or wood bit, but they were very slow to make holes, mostly suited to softer masonry and hardly faster than an entirely manual Rawdrill and hammer, except they produced a cleaner hole.

But that was a very long time ago, Harry. Tungsten carbide was first synthesized by Henri Muassanom (Henri Moissan) in 1893 when he fused tungsten with carbon in his electric furnace. The first patents (in the UK) for the production of carbide bits was issued in the 1920s and industrial rotary pneumatic hammers appeared well before WWII (in the UK, from Kango).

By the early 1960s both Mason Master and Rawl (in the UK) were selling speed reducers with percussive hammer action to work on DIY power drills to DIYers. So whilst I started work in the 1970s using "hand powered" rawl drills which had to be sharpened, I only used them for a year or two (maybe an apprentice punishment - the world was full of that sort of thing back then), I can also remember my old man having a Mason Master attachment for his trusty B&D drill well before that. I have a couple of those early adaptors at home - by today's standards they are awful, but by the standards of the day they were a huge improvement over what had previously been available. The time consuming nature of drilling masonry is why we used to carry a plugging chisel, a club hammer and a hatchet - to chisel-out mortar from joints, chop timber wedges and knock them into the recess in the mortar (they were then sawn off flush with a hand saw)

By the late 1960s some Black & Decker DIY drills began to be available with percussive hammer action, and they were sold alongside "blunt" (actually 5 to 10°) carbide tipped masonry drills which I recall had to be sent away for sharpening - because the green grit abrasives required for sharpening them were still relatively uncommon (and required an expensive bench grinder). Bosch and Hilti changed the game completely by introducing the SDS drill in 1975, and by 1985 it was in use by many tradesmen, but the carbide drill tips in use on that are fundamentally the same as the early post-war carbide masonry drill bits.

So for anyone to have used sharp (i.e. non-TCT) masonry bits, they are probably going to be very old...

Edit: This is for @Harry Bloomfield :

Two Mason Master impact attachments, one brand new with the pre-decimalisation price of "50/=" on the box (so £2/10/-, or about £2.50 in today's money - we went decimal on 15 Feb 1971). These were quite expensive when you consider that the Black & Decker D.520 2-speed drill with them in the photo was listed at about £10/15/- (£10.75) at the time, and in early 1972 I was earning something like £12 a week, pre-tax, pension and NI

 

[cdbe]

These are my B&Q specials, £5 for 4, fitted with the DeWalt cordless as I couldn't be arsed dragging the SDS up:

Ladder far more secure now but I think I'll Invest in some ratchet straps as well for convenience:

The now redundant "base stop"

And the initial problem showing why a standoff at the top wouldn't work (I needed to rebuild the brick window cill and my arms aren't that long) and why it wouldn't work anywhere else on the ladder:

 

[DiyNutJob]

unless you are aiming to inject resin into the skin behind that - a rare occurrence.

Yes, that was exactly the intention. I wanted a blob of resin on the internal exit of the bolt. I consider merely gluing the bolt to the smooth hole surface to be inadequate. In fact, I think that's a bit dumb. The blob would act like a securing nut for the bolt. That bolt cannot come out except when the brick itself is coming out, or destroyed. I didn't care how much resin had gone into the back because I had no further use for the resin. I used a total of 100ml or 1/3 of the tube when it overflowed the hole.

The chosen resin is the correct one because it worked, at an acceptable price point, and has the strength spec I was looking for.

The very first masonry drills, did actually need to be sharp

I have bits that have sharp-angled cutting edge. Those would work somewhat without hammer action. This applies to the bosch blue painted flutes as well.

I agree, you should never use water on the tips.

Have you used water to know? I remain convinced it would have positive effects.

 

[DiyNutJob]

And the initial problem showing why a standoff at the top wouldn't work

Looks to me a stand off would work below the cill. The top of the lader should be around that level.

That blade you have there will cost you a foot.

 

[Deleted member 174758]

...you should never use water on the tips.

Have you used water to know? I remain convinced it would have positive effects.

The carbide tips on masonry bits are commonly nickel brazed in place, which means they will take quite a bit of heat, however in use the carbide tips get really hot, so dropping water onto them when they are so hot can and does cause the brazing to crack and fail. I've seen people try this and just end up wrecking the bits (the tip just drops out) - not so bad when it's their tooling they are wrecking, unacceptable when I'm paying for it and we don't have a spare on hand because it's an oddball size.

That why in an earlier post I said:

Throwing water onto a hot brazed carbide tip can cause the brazing which holds the tip in place to fail, and the tip will simply fall out, so it isn't conducive to long drill bit life.

Not theory, I've seen it done and seen the results.

 

[DiyNutJob]

(the tip just drops out)

Have you a video for that? I am unconvinced. Water would have kept the drill bit not so hot in the first place. Water would have some effect on the masonry as well, maybe weakens it. Water would certainly have congealed the powder and allow them to be expelled by the flutes making drilling faster.

 

[Harry Bloomfield]

Have you a video for that? I am unconvinced. Water would have kept the drill bit not so hot in the first place. Water would have some effect on the masonry as well, maybe weakens it. Water would certainly have congealed the powder and allow them to be expelled by the flutes making drilling faster.

The hammer action relies upon pulverising the masonry to a dust, water will turn dust into a paste, cushion that action and impede the process making it much slower. If you doubt it, try it.

The hammer action works much better and generates less heat, than is true of cutting or abrading the masonry.

 

[DiyNutJob]

The hammer action relies upon pulverising the masonry to a dust, water will turn dust into a paste, cushion that action and impede the process making it much slower. If you doubt it, try it.

The hammer action works much better and generates less heat, than is true of cutting or abrading the masonry.

Powderizing is the only thing that will work for bits with rounded cutters. Water can be used with the bosch blue painted flutes with sharp cutters. The goal would be to not use hammering to avoid blowing out. Water would improve cutting power.

The alternative is to use incremental bit sizes that is proven already by this thread to minimise blowing out.

 

[Deleted member 174758]

Have you a video for that?

Of course not - I drill hundreds, sometimes thousands of holes every year holes as part of my job horizontally into walls, so I don't have the time to bugger about making stupid, pointless videos. If you put water onto a hot bit and cool it rapidly the brazing can crack. It is caused by over-rapid contraction and can happen to certain metals. There is absolutely no point in putting water down most of the holes you are drilling because (i) it delivers no advantages and just wastes time, (ii) it would result in a liquid slurry running down the wall out of the hole, which would waste more time cleaning the mess up, that's always assuming the slurry doesn't actually clog the flutes in the first place and (iii) using water with a corded power tool that isn't designed to work with water is a mind-numbingly stupid thing to do and will potentially gain you a Darwin Award when you get electrocuted and fall off your ladder. If you think about it Hilti, probably the world's premier manufacturer of construction industrial drilling machinery, have been making rotary hammers (really big masonry drills) since the 1940s and Bosch have been making SDS drills since they invented them (with Hilti) in 1975, or about 47 years ago - and yet neither of these two companies have ever put water feed on their SDS or SDS Max drills. Does that maybe tell you something?

Note that the video you attached above is for vertical drilling into concrete - for your wall you were drilling horizontally into brick. So unless you have some way of turning gravity through 90° the same technique won't work for wall drilling, will it? Your approach is a bit like comparing oranges to onions in my opinion

Water is used as a coolant on some diamond core drills - but they are very large diameter, and are specifically designed for that, as are the specialised drill motors used to drive them.

Oh, and BTW, water itself doesn't weaken masonry - if it did your house walls would dissolve or fall down every time it rained, wouldn't it?

For your benefit, a 7mm hole about 70mm deep in blue Accringtons (extremely hard blue engineering brick) with a 2J SDS drill takes about 20 to 25 seconds. A 14mm hole about 100mm deep into Victorian brick or sandstone with a 1.2J cordless Makita SDS takes about 20 seconds - with a 4.3J Milwaukee corded SDS that goes down to under 10 seconds. So why on earth would anyone faff about with water which will slow the job down and make the whole process a lot messier? Other than you, that is

 

[Deleted member 174758]

The alternative is to use incremental bit sizes that is proven already by this thread to minimise blowing out.

The alternative is to use (buy, borrow, hire) the appropriate tool for the job, i.e. an SDS drill, and drill the hole in one pass and a fraction of the time. Your neighbours must love you drilling away at the same hole for 40 or more minutes...

 

[DiyNutJob]

Of course not

I was more asking if you have any video on it, not just your own. To drill with water, obviously you'd put water in first before drilling. The water would keep the bit cool. I am thinking of spraying in some water and not filling it like a pool.

 

[noseall]

The alternative is to use (buy, borrow, hire) the appropriate tool for the job, i.e. an SDS drill

Correct. I concluded several posts ago that DNJ is either a troll or a nutter.

 

[Deleted member 174758]

I was more asking if you have any video on it, not just your own. To drill with water, obviously you'd put water in first before drilling. The water would keep the bit cool. I am thinking of spraying in some water and not filling it like a pool.

And how do you intend to stop it dribbling out (of a horizontal hole) and down the wall, which is will mark? And how do you ensure electrical safety? Live electrics and water are a potentially lethal combination, you know. One thing I've learned from working on listed buildings is that one of the most awkward things to deal with is water and brick slurry running down across something like limestone (or for that matter limestone slurry running across porous tred brick)?

If you used the correct combination of drill and bit you'd have drilled the hole in less time than it took you to make the last post. That's an SDS drill with a masonry bit but no water is needed

Want an SDS video? Look for Bosch SDS on YouTube. In amongst the nutters and incompetents on there you'll doubtless find some videos produced by Bosch.

Since I bought my first SDS drill in 1980 or 81 they have only got better. My first drill was a 1J (i.e. 1 Joule force hammer blow) 550 watt corded drill that weighed 3kg and ran at about 600rpm. It ran rings around the 750 watt percussion drill I had up to that point, being 4 to 5 times as fast drilling 10mm holes into solid brick for injection DPCs. I now have a 1J brushless cordless 12 volt Milwaukee SDS which is the same sort of size as a 1960s Black & Decker drill, weighs less, but drills maybe 20 to 30% faster than that first Bosch SDS, partly because I use 3- and 4-flute drills which drill faster that the old 2-flute designs. That is a 5 or 6 year old design. My corded SDS these days is a 3.5kg Milwaukee which has a 4.3J hammer strength. That makes it an ideal tool for heavy concrete and stone work. It drills at maybe 3 times the rate of my original Bosch SDS drill and is rated for 32 or 34mm diameter bits (not that I've used any that size). Again, not a new design, in fact that design is more than 10 years old - its' successor is about 500 grammes heavier for slightly more power. Now that is progress.

 

[DiyNutJob]

And how do you intend to stop it dribbling out (of a horizontal hole) and down the wall, which is will mark?

Maybe I don't intend to stop it? If my priority is to have no blow out, then I would be willing accept the price of a mark. Nothing suggests to me the mark can't be cleared. The problem here is yours and mine priorities are different. Your interest is to have a tidy surface even if you blow half of the customer's brick away which might lead to collapse of his wall down the line. I can't do that when I am dealing with my own brick. I want no damage to it.

And how do you ensure electrical safety?

I have a plug in circuit breaker. Seems I am better equipped than you are.

If you used the correct combination of drill and bit you'd have drilled the hole in less time than it took you to make the last post. That's an SDS drill with a masonry bit but no water is needed

Water was mentioned as a solution to avoid hammering. An SDS would be useless.

 

[opps]

I was more asking if you have any video on it, not just your own. To drill with water, obviously you'd put water in first before drilling. The water would keep the bit cool. I am thinking of spraying in some water and not filling it like a pool.

As I mentioned in an earlier post.. I have only every had one masonry drill bit overheat, but that was my fault for using a hammer action drill, whereas I should have used a SDS drill.

I am going to duck out of this thread. You have been given good advice by people that, quite frankly, In respect, nevertheless you seem to want to believe youtube.