flueless gas fires

I take your point but no I am not saying that , but it might depend on the make of the fire , was it a Burley ?? the imfo' I posted comes directly from them , reviewing the report of the fatality , I note that thse investigating it were unable to determine absolutely why the A.S.D did not click out , although since the incident B.S.Standards were changed , & it advised that any air vent should not be closer than 1 metre to the fire .
Other poss causes were the open plan nature of the building , & they stated that poc may have been taken away by convection & would not build up in the vicinity of the fire .
They also stated that the the combustion quality at the appliance was so bad to start off with , combined with the rapid rise in C.O in a short space of time , it is poss' that the A.S.D would not have failed safe in the short time that was needed to prevent the incident . The Heat input to the fire should have been 2.6 K/W , It was 5.4 K/W .
 
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Phew is it ended.
Been with the forum a year, never seen a thread this long
Can any of you veterans recall a longer one
 
5 Pages is a baby been up in the 20`s before, ten is quite a regular occurence
 
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Here we go again!

No they don't. There has been one tragic incident in 11 years and that was down to an incorrect installation/commisioning. ie negligence on the part of the unqualified installer
 
Went to a job this morning to service boiler. Chap asked if i could take a look at their gas fire as it smells when its on. Walked in front room, flueless unit on wall. Great!
Whacked it on, performed room CO test and recommended a CO alarm. At least he had a vent.
 
I know I will regret this, but I felt compelled to comment on this blog. I am the MD of Burley Appliances and have been very closely involved in the design, testing, writing of British standards, and general introduction of flueless fires to Britain.

Over the past 11 years I seem to have spent half my life trying to limit the damage done to these marvelous products from misinformed comment, some from poorly researched speculation, and some from malicious rumor from competitors who regard them as a threat to their flued gas fires.

Safety is of course of paramount importance. Every single flueless fire that Burley has ever produced is bench run for 30 minutes and the combustion recorded (I think this makes us unique in the gas industry). Therefore I literally have more factual evidence regarding flueless fires than probably anyone else on the planet.

Our in house test criteria are 4 times stricter than what British standards allow, but even at these limits the products are designed so that we literally never have one fail.

The valves Burley insists on using are designed so that even if they were adjusted in the field, the maximum flow rate could never overload the catalytic converter.

Every fire is designed so that it must pass all standards even with the cat' disabled.

We have had fires on test for the equivalent of 40 years use. We do everything to try to reproduce extreme conditions of misuse: overloading, spraying polish and solvents into the cat', connecting it to the wrong gas, over pressure, over heating etc etc. Periodically we send a cat' away for analysis. After all this use they are still performing to 100% of their original efficiency. We have NEVER had a cat' fail. Even if one did, it would not pose a risk.

Oxygen depletion sensors and flame failure devices are fitted to all products. If the gas pressure to the appliance increases by more than a couple of millibars the fire cuts off.

The fire which caused the fatality was not a Burley but this is not something to bask in. It is of course a great tragedy to all those involved as well as 'tarring' ALL flueless fire with the same brush. It resulted in standards being changed so this could not happen again.

In Britain there are around 15,000,000 flued gas fires. Heaters with chimneys and flues kill between 20 and 50 people every year, so why don't we hear comments like 'don't fit a flued fire, they're dangerous'? In America there are around 20,000,000 flueless fires which have been in use for up to 20 years, without a single death. In Japan there are around 50,000,000 flueless heaters in use.

Flued heaters rely on the chimney for the fire to operate safely. A chimney is fallible. If a bird builds its nest in it over the summer, or the masonry collapses, the flue could be blocked. The next time the fire is used the combusted gasses will enter the house. A flueless fire does not rely on a chimney to operate, it MUST be designed to burn extremely cleanly and therefore it can provide an unsurpassed level of safety.

For a layman, I think the simplest way to look at it is that a gas cooker is a flueless heater but without a cat' and the strict combustion regulations. A flueless fire is equivalent in output to just one small ring on the cooker.

The other major advantage which flueless fires provide is fuel efficiency. The efficiencies claimed by many flued fires are totally unjustifiable (this is another one of my battlegrounds which I won't get started on). Tests which Burley have carried out show that a flued fire loses around 2/3rds of its heat straight up the chimney. The chimney also draws huge amounts of warm air from the rest of the house, which is replaced by cold air creeping around windows and doors. A flueless fire is 100% efficient, and the warm air tends to radiant outwards to benefit the rest of the house.

If you assume that a gas fire is used for 3 hours per day for 4 months of the year, if all the flued fires in Britain were replaced with flueless, the gas saved would be 23,520,000,000 kWh EVERY year! Regardless of views on global warming, surely it is foolhardy to waste this amount of energy when there is a viable alternative.

I know that all the above information will not change many people’s opinions. Even in the face of incontrovertible facts there will always be an element of 'I've been fitting fires now for 30 years and a mate told me.....'. Strangely it often seems to be older fitters who are extremely set in their ways that can't handle the new technology. Most younger fitters can see how ridiculous it is having to put a hole in the roof to let out the gasses from a heater with bad combustion, along with all the heat.

Just for the record, Burley are a major manufacturer of flued fires AND flueless fires. Financially it does not matter to me which I sell.
 
Safety is of course of paramount importance. Every single flueless fire that Burley has ever produced is bench run for 30 minutes and the combustion recorded (I think this makes us unique in the gas industry). Therefore I literally have more factual evidence regarding flueless fires than probably anyone else on the planet.

Our in house test criteria are 4 times stricter than what British standards allow, but even at these limits the products are designed so that we literally never have one fail.

The valves Burley insists on using are designed so that even if they were adjusted in the field, the maximum flow rate could never overload the catalytic converter.

Every fire is designed so that it must pass all standards even with the cat' disabled.

Whilst you you have said is all laudable, the plain fact as we are led to believe is that the problem fire was adjustable to way over its safe operational input power and left the factory set at this unsafe level and indeed had the adjustment screw sealed with varnish.

What would you like to say about that design and production testing error?

In my view the manufacturers were mostly to blame because fires sold in B&Q are going to be installed by DIYers who just dont know anything about gas.

As a final point I dont understand your last paragraph I have quoted above. Surely with the cat "disabled" it will be passing dangerous quantities of monoxide?

I am also surprised you didn't put your name to the posting.

Tony Glazier



PS

Also for the record relating to the uninformed posting from Scotland above, I have never failed any ACS ! Its a pity that some anonomous posters dont care about the truth of what they say.
 
thanks for your input "Mr Burley" sadly it is fact that another manufacturer of said fires does not use any ethical proceedures to test and verify their products are safe. the assembly line is staffed by foreign workers who often do not speak english and this leads to poorly constructed items being sent out.
for the record we do not fit any of their products, flueless or flued due to their poor quality control.
maybe as you are posting on here you would like to explain to all how your company can claim a product is 100% efficient other than by careful manipulation of Gross & Nett?

until it is proven without doubt these fires are 100% safe, 100% of the time I for one will never fit one. yes i may lose 2 or 3 customers a year but i sleep at night!
 
the plain fact as we are led to believe is that the problem fire was adjustable to way over its safe operational input power and left the factory set at this unsafe level and indeed had the adjustment screw sealed with varnish.

In my view the manufacturers were mostly to blame because fires sold in B&Q are going to be installed by DIYers who just dont know anything about gas.

well said Tony

note: the highlighted part of the post
 
Re the above 2 comments. I said I was going to regret commenting.

The whole point of making a good flueless fire is to get clean combustion in the first place, not to clean up poor combustion with a cat'. Like I said, even with the cat' disabled the fire must still pass CE approval. Very few of the 50,000,000 flueless fires in Japan have a cat' at all. This is one reason why we advocate glass fronts, so rubbish can't be thrown on the fire to potentially disrupt the combustion.

As I am not party to other manufacturers practices it would not be fair of me to comment. When a product is approved for CE, the factory and all its practics are also very closely inspected and approved. The test houses were obviously satisfied. Again, like I said, the stadards have now been changed to close this potential error. I do not think the ethnicity of the workforce is constructive or relevant to safety. The processes and design must be in place to ensure products can only be assembled properly.

Whether or not a member of the public is stupid enough to try and install their own gas fire is nothing to do with the manufacturer. All we can do is warn and insist that fitters must be registered, and to make the appliances as idiot proof as far as we possibly can. Whether or not the public should be allowed to buy gas appliances is a subject for government and out of our control.

100% gross, 90% nett. I compare like for like. Hence why you can get 104% efficient boilers.

100% safe for 100% of the time? Then why do you fit flued fires which have a worse safety record? This is rhetorical.
 
Re the above 2 comments. I said I was going to regret commenting.

The whole point of making a good flueless fire is to get clean combustion in the first place, not to clean up poor combustion with a cat'. Like I said, even with the cat' disabled the fire must still pass CE approval. Very few of the 50,000,000 flueless fires in Japan have a cat' at all. This is one reason why we advocate glass fronts, so rubbish can't be thrown on the fire to potentially disrupt the combustion.

We welcome the opportunity to hear a manufacturer's views.

I had to do my CPA 1 recently and one of the tests involved a cat gas fire.

You will probably know what model but it was a Focal Point ( again ) with an intentional ORANGE flame enclosed behind a glass panel and the gases were cleaned up with the cat before being released into the room !

I had not encountered a design like that before and I was appalled at just how dangerous anything like that could be. It was ideal for drying socks over the top.

The only good thing I can say about it is that the cat did clean up the POC but even so I could not bring myself to breathe close to it.

Tony
 
thank you for the clarification on efficiency - 90% then not 100% as claimed by advertising!

as for why do i fit flued fires - i try not to, is the answer, but with a flue i feel there is less chance of a build up of fumes within the room as even in the worst case at least a minimal pull will be exerted on the flue of the fire.

sadly as you rightly point out all open flued appliances carry a spillage risk especially when the customer sticks things over the ventilation grill "because its draughty"
again customers rarely see the benefit of a CO detector and often if they do have one they have removed the battery " because it was bleeping" you can't tell them either!
so ultimately yes it is the end user that causes 90% of the problems
as for the comment on ethnicity let me put it another way as i am not racist or patriotic the point made was and still is the problem of language barrier, a non english speaking person will often struggle with english as much as i would with their language! this is in my mind a recipe for a disaster like Cwmbran, as they won't understand they are doing things wrong until its too late.
 

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