flueless gas fires

OK, sorry, I do get a little heated on the subject, after such a long time of having to defend our corner it wears one down. If I can help then I'll try to answer any questions.

I am biased but I think that is down to my belief in flueless. We make more flued gas fires than flueless and are also one of the main manufacturers of electric fires, so I don't think any bias comes from financial reasons.

You are right Agile about the orange flame, but the fires will have passed CE approval before their sale is allowed. The design of the burner and coal layout is everything in a flueless fire. An orange flame will tend to soot and produce more CO, but of course the customers want an orange flame for the look. A blue flame produces less CO but more NOX, it also does not look appealing. If you ensure there is no flame impingement and a good introduction of secondary air you can have a yellow flame with virtually zero CO, low NOX and a decent flame picture (or as good as you can get with just 2.5kW of gas).

You are not allowed to rely on the cat' to clean the combustion. They are tested with and without the cat' and must pass both. The limit allowed in use is 9ppm in the room (which will equate to around 30+ppm from the appliance), but I do not know any that produce anything like that amount. As I said, we test every fire we make and virtually all will record between zero and 3ppm. As the new fires are burning off paint and oils etc, the combustion actually improves with time.

We do come across diyer's who have fitted their own, but this is true with flued and flueless. We would never condone it and any warranty is instantly invalidated. We put all over the instructions and literature that a qualified installer must be used. If however a diy'er is determined to fit his own gas fire, he is far less likely to harm his family with a flueless. The products of combustion coming out the fire will be clean almost regardless of how stupid he has been, if he tries to fit his own flued fire any mistake with the chimney (downdraught, poor sealing, blocked flue etc) then he has put himself in a very dangerous position. I think I teaching you all to suck eggs here.

Re cut off points, 9ppm is the limit in the room. The ODS on a flueless must cut off before a drop of 1.5% oxygen, a flued fire is 2%. The problem with a cooker is when pans of cold water etc are put on the burners. Not sure what the limit is but I know a man who does if you want me to find out.
 
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Hi
Be interested to understand the potential condensation issues that are created by these fires?

To be honest that is the only thing that stops us getting one as I am comfortable wioth the science behind how they work (and the 70million or so installations elsewhere!)

Does this issue get addressed anywhere?

We have a 19ft by 12ft lounge that has a nice fireplace currently with no fire. I have ruled out a woodburner on cost of external twin walled flue (and lack of decent free supply of wood) and we are leaning towards a balanced flue wood burner look a like at present so we are seriously considering all options

Thanks
 
Why not educate rather than defend? If you can honestly stand by your product offer free training days to RGIs.

It's in your interest, partly because you lose a lot of customers when they ring installers and are told not to touch flueless fires with a bargepole and also because it will only take a few unfortunate incidents with flueless fires (possibly not yours) before it all goes tits up for you.

Would you care to comment on how the vent affects your claims of efficiency? Most flued fires these days fall beneath the 7kW limit so rely on adventitious ventilation obviously a draft coming through the wall 24/7 does not help with energy conservation.

Also is it possible to say how much water these units produce on average in say an hour?
 
We do come across diyer's who have fitted their own, but this is true with flued and flueless. We would never condone it and any warranty is instantly invalidated.

Thank you for that very useful reply.

One could scale back the condensation from a condensing boiler which at 24 kW can produce about 2 li/hour so a 2.4 kW fire might produce about 20 cc of water.

What does interest me from your reply though is that you invalidate the warrantee if your fires are not professionally fitted.

Boiler makers always tell us they cannot withold a warrantee because of the sale of goods act. Frankly I dont believe that on an appliance that by law has to be installed by a qualified person. I suspect they still value sales by the unqualified ! That may also explain why they dont want to restrict sales to RGIs.

Can you comment on this warrantee point?

Tony
 
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Good idea about the training days, perhaps we could arrange it regionally at our customer's premises. You can probably tell that I'd be delighted to spread the word.

The condensation is a consideration. This is the only reason why we state that these must be secondary heat sources. In the early days we had an instance where a customer was trying to heat his already damp victorian house solely with 3 flueless fires. The fire produces roughly 1/4 of a pint (or 150ml) per hour. In cold or damp conditions, without a small amount of background heat to keep the dew point up, this may condense on cold surfaces before it has a chance to disperse through the house or to the outside by adventitious ventilation. This is why I was a little vague about the efficiency, if all the moisture condenses the fire is 110% nett, 100% gross. If none of it condenses it is 100% nett, 90% gross. In reality it will be somewhere between the two. But as long as our competitors quote nett, so will I.

(There are many many ways that the efficiencies of flued fires are fabricated, it is discussed openly at our industry meetings. In my opionion if you halve the claimed efficiency in most cases you won't be far from the truth. This is something which I really get irate about, so I won't get started, but if you were sold a car under the pretense that you would do 70 mpg, only to find that the most you could get was 35mpg, I think you would have a good reason to complain.)

It is very rare that we ever have an issue with condensation. To put it into perspective a human loses nearly 50ml per hour through evapration.

The vent in the wall is a negative selling point and we are trying to have legislation changed to allow an automatically linked vent which opens when the fire is turned on. However, the small vent which is zero rated has negligible effect when compared to a chimney or flue which actively sucks the air from the house. You will all be aware of the draw which a flue exerts, this pulls all the warm air through the entire house and shoves it through the roof.

Balanced flue fires are the next best efficiency to flueless, we have also started making these.

I do not see why boiler manufacturers cannot withdraw the warranty if their products are not professinally serviced. If I tried to change the engine on my Volvo, when I made a complete hash of it which i certainly would, I'm damn sure Volvo wouldn't send a mechanic to put it right again for me.
 
Thanks for taking the time to reply.

I will serously now look into the Esteem 2.5kw stove for some background heat on colder evenings in the lounge. It does look like the vent will be the only remaining issue and I will see if I can find someone who actually fits these fires and can talk to me about where the vent can be placed to avoid the draught issues that they often seem to bring
 
again i would agree with the thanks given it is good to see the other side of the coin!
as an installer i tend to veer away from fires as much as possible. but having read the informed (some say biased :LOL: ) response from Mr B. (you must have a name!!) i would think about installing flueless fires now so you have at least 1 convert! (but I still won't fit a FP product flueless or otherwise)
 
I think most of the responses have been biased one way or the other :)

I know nothing about flueless fires but wouldn't fit one on principle which puts me in the same camp as most RGIs.

However if training is supplied (as opposed to a day spent listening to how great they are) and they prove to be safe then it might be time to reconsider.

Was talking to my Dad and he was telling me about a flueless space heater he had 25 years ago I'm sure some on here remember them ;)
 
:) Well that pretty much sums it up , flueless fires are safe , I was never in any doubt (?????? ) after all I put 3 in , I have spoken to loads of installers , apart from me , snugib, & 1 other (3) , I cant find any one else who has installed them . Must admit some of you had me worried .
I wont be sampling H.M.P food after all !!!
 
PE wrote


Hi
Be interested to understand the potential condensation issues that are created by these fires?

We have a 19ft by 12ft lounge that has a nice fireplace currently with no fire. I have ruled out a woodburner on cost of external twin walled flue (and lack of decent free supply of wood) and we are leaning towards a balanced flue wood burner look a like at present so we are seriously considering all options
--------------------------------------------------------------
Is your home a Wimpey 4 bed det.with no flu. Mine is, modern timber frame with excellent 9 inch insulation between the plaster wall and timber frame then the cavity,then the bricks My lounge is also 19ft x 12ft and here is my Burley flueless fire of 4 years

2iqcmx4.jpg


Brilliant, no condensation issues at all
 
No not a Wimpey timber frame, but well insulated cavity wall like yours. Interesting to know you have had no oisture issues with it thanks

What output is your fire - we are looking at a 2.5kw one possibly?
 
Hi PE
Our fire is a Burley G4240 - 49 Model Environ. Heat input (nett) High 2.5kw. Low 1.5kw at somewhere between 90 to 100% efficiency
With the required vent, and because we don't have a flue we really do not have any draughts to speak of. With the lounge door open and upstairs doors and windows open you can feel a draught. However obviously during cold spells when the fire is on we do not allow those conditions to prevail.
I do not know if Burley still make this model. All I can say is we are delighted with its 4 years trouble free performance, and I have the comfort of knowing that I installed it, as a Corgi registered installer. Now retired. :LOL: :LOL: :LOL: :LOL:
 
What worries me most about flueless fires and fires in general is that a loacl B&Q has a large area dedicated to gas fires but I dont even remember a single call to enquire about fitting them.

The very few fires I have fitted have always been for existing clients.

The only fire I remember is a flueless that had already been attached to the wall and I was called to quote for connecting the gas supply ( from about 6 m away ).

The lady did not want a vent in the thick wall ( probably on account of the extra cost ) and I refused to connect the gas unless she had one !

Tony
 
I do accept that it is a probability that DIYers are installing gas appliances. However I recall that when I purchased my fire the outlet asked if I needed their man to install it, I guess B&Q have their RGIs. Also the outlet at which I bought my fireplace asked if I could do some work for them as their RGIs were buried in work.
Plus I reckon, due to the ill conceived bad mouthing of flueless fires, a lot of RGIs will not admit to installing them, whilst quietly doing alright, thank you very much, on really what is a very simple job
 

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