Forum Attitude to Non-Notification

[JohnW2]

I am not saying only qualified electricians should be allowed to do electrical installation, just that there is no justification for saying there should be different requirements for DIY vs professional. I am not saying they need a full set of quals, but should understand the basics. For testing, there are books and hire shops. You don't need 239x to understand the significance of the readings, just knowledge of what readings to expect. The minimum would be a loop and RCD test.

With respect, I think you're missing the point. I agree with everything you say above, BUT IMO, the chances that a person who comes to this forum to ask how to change a socket or light switch will read books about testing and hire an MFT in order to do the job are close to negligible - do you disagree?

Realistically, we EITHER have to accept that the people I'm talking about will not do any significant testing OR tell them they shouldn't do the job. To pretend to ourselves that they will acquire the knowledge/kit and do the testing is really (again, IMO) a totally unrealistic attempt to comfort ourselves.

Kind Regards, John

 

[RB2004]

May I just add to this,

I am a DIYer... but I am nearer to professional than basic DIYer.

I own copies of the On Site Guide, 17th Edition regulations book (latest one)

I have also worked previously with electricians who have given me guidance.. allowed me to lay the cables under guidance and even connect them up to the accessories (not to consumer unit)

ok so this might not be legal in your eyes but the electrician was happy with all of my work and visually inspected the whole route of the cable, and after changing the consumer unit tested everything with all results being satisfactory.

I have also equally done work and notified legally to the local building control, and hired test equipment to test my own circuits properly to make sure everything is ok and general feedback of the local building authority is that my work is done to a high standard and in some respects to a higher standard than required.

I do calculations when required, and always use correctly sized cable and accessories.

Yet I have previously posted on here and asked a small question that im unsure about.. I have been shot down as being incompetant and dont know what im doing.. and on those same occasions when ive gone ahead and done the work anyway and had it inspected been told by local building authority and electricians that there is absolutely nothing wrong with my work and that the standard is to standard and in some respects above standard.

Which proves that sometimes, people on here judge a persons competency incorrectly on the assumption of a few mis chosen words or queries made.. but making a query because im unsure doesnt mean I will then go on to do it wrong.. it just means I will spend longer trying to find the answer before doing it correctly.

Also unlike some people, I HIRE the test equipment and DO TEST my circuits properly and own copies of the relevent regulation books.

And it has always been my intention to buy the equipment and get properly trained later on, as I have a genuine desire to be competent and I already try my hardest to do everything correctly.

But the overall consenses is the work I do shows competency.

 

[PrenticeBoyofDerry]

If you have had an electrician on board from the outset, who is going to cert your installation. You have done nothing illegal, providing the electrician can confirm that the rating, routing of cable are correct and that compliances to part A of building regulations have been applied.

With regards to your other installation under notification and the manner in which you have applied yourself and the progression of further knowledge you wish to attain, I commend you.
The problem is that not a lot of the DIYers do apply themselves correctly to the task in hand.

 

[RB2004]

No I haven't done anything illegally, I even hire the test equipment at a cost of £96 each time for 1 week.. And own copies of the relevant books.never do anything without knowing how to do correctly.

But in the past I have asked a question I'm not quite sure about (but never did until I was sure and was able to do correctly) yet I have been branded as incompetent and told if I dunno what I'm doing I should get electrician.. Then when I get it signed off I've been told my work is perfectly fine so I can't be that incompetent.

I don't agree with people doing work wrongly and below standard.. And have told many people about doing electrical work to sub standard... Like using cooker cable for a detached garage. Made it clear my views on that.. And know its wrong.

But I wish that people wouldn't be so quick to shout at me and tell me I'm incompetent when actually I'm not, even if the law defines me as not being because I don't possess paper certificate. In terms of skill level and the overall standard of my work I feel I am competent... And that's been proved with the continual feedback on the quality of my work whenever it's been signed off.

 

[JohnW2]

May I just add to this, I am a DIYer... but I am nearer to professional than basic DIYer. I own copies of the On Site Guide, 17th Edition regulations book (latest one) ... Also unlike some people, I HIRE the test equipment and DO TEST my circuits properly and own copies of the relevent regulation books.

I guess I'm in a broadly similar situation. In fact, I own all the necessary test gear, so I don't need to hire, and have a very extensive collection of books etc. and, even if I say so myself, a high level of understanding of the underlying principles (and decades of experience of doing 'things electrical'). However, you would presumably would agree that we (and a few others here) are in an incredibly small minority amongst the DIYing population as a whole, so we're almost irrelevant to discussions about DIYers in general.

Yet I have previously posted on here and asked a small question that im unsure about.. I have been shot down as being incompetant and dont know what im doing.. and on those same occasions when ive gone ahead and done the work anyway and had it inspected been told by local building authority and electricians that there is absolutely nothing wrong with my work and that the standard is to standard and in some respects above standard. ... Which proves that sometimes, people on here judge a persons competency incorrectly on the assumption of a few mis chosen words or queries made.. but making a query because im unsure doesnt mean I will then go on to do it wrong.. it just means I will spend longer trying to find the answer before doing it correctly.

I experienced similar when I first joined the forum. You have to understand that the problem of this medium is that your words on the screen are the only way in which people can make any judgements about you, so if they don't know you, it's pretty inevitable that those 'few mischosen words' will create 'a certain impression'. However, even if people don't get terminology quite right, one can usually get a reasonable idea of someone's probable level of knowledge and competence by the nature, rather than the wording, of the questions they ask. Of course, there’s nothing one can do to save oneself from a situation in which one has written such as to make one sound like a totally incompetent idiot – so it always pays to think at least twice before pressing that ‘submit’ button!

Kind Regards, John

 

[PrenticeBoyofDerry]

But I wish that people wouldn't be so quick to shout at me and tell me I'm incompetent when actually I'm not, even if the law defines me as not being because I don't possess paper certificate. In terms of skill level and the overall standard of my work I feel I am competent... And that's been proved with the continual feedback on the quality of my work whenever it's been signed off.

Unfortunately some forum members seem to get there kicks by belittling others, I suggest you deal with it, as it is them that have issues.

 

[scousespark]

I am not saying only qualified electricians should be allowed to do electrical installation, just that there is no justification for saying there should be different requirements for DIY vs professional. I am not saying they need a full set of quals, but should understand the basics. For testing, there are books and hire shops. You don't need 239x to understand the significance of the readings, just knowledge of what readings to expect. The minimum would be a loop and RCD test.

With respect, I think you're missing the point. I agree with everything you say above, BUT IMO, the chances that a person who comes to this forum to ask how to change a socket or light switch will read books about testing and hire an MFT in order to do the job are close to negligible - do you disagree?

Realistically, we EITHER have to accept that the people I'm talking about will not do any significant testing OR tell them they shouldn't do the job. To pretend to ourselves that they will acquire the knowledge/kit and do the testing is really (again, IMO) a totally unrealistic attempt to comfort ourselves.

Kind Regards, John

I agree that there is little chance of the people in question tresting, but they should be advised to do so. I'm not saying that C&G level training is required.

 

[JohnW2]

I agree that there is little chance of the people in question tresting, but they should be advised to do so.

No argument about that. However, having advised them to do something which we know has little chance of actually happening, do we then continue advising them about the task - or should we refuse to 'enourage them' (as BAS would put it) by giving specific advice (and therefore leave them to do it without the benefit of any assistance/advice)?

Kind Regards, John

 

[scousespark]

I agree that there is little chance of the people in question tresting, but they should be advised to do so.

No argument about that. However, having advised them to do something which we know has little chance of actually happening, do we then continue advising them about the task - or should we refuse to 'enourage them' (as BAS would put it) by giving specific advice (and therefore leave them to do it without the benefit of any assistance/advice)?

Kind Regards, John

I think it has to be a pragmatic decision. If the OP is clearly out of their depth, I'd say continuing is ill-advised as the chance of them acting on the advice is fairly low.

 

[JohnW2]

I think it has to be a pragmatic decision.

Exactly - and a decision which has to be made 'case-by-case', on the basis of our perception of the OP gleaned by what (s)he writes (and how (s)he writes it).

If the OP is clearly out of their depth, I'd say continuing is ill-advised as the chance of them acting on the advice is fairly low.

I'm not sure I agree with that, per se. One positive thing to be said about the people you're talking about is that they have at least come to a forum to ask questions, rather than just ploughing on without any advice/assistance. I therefore suspect than many of them probably will act on the specific ('how to do it') advice, even if not on the advice 'not to do it'.

The 'worst' cases are the ones we don't see here - those who don't realise that they are out of their depth and/or who are sufficiently arrogant/foolhardy to proceed without any assistance/advice at all.

Kind Regards, John

 

[stillp]

One positive thing to be said about the people you're talking about is that they have at least come to a forum to ask questions, rather than just ploughing on without any advice/assistance.

Unfortunately there are many who aren't asking questions because they are interested in the answers, but know exactly what they intend to do, and are asking for the blessing of the forum.

 

[JohnW2]

Unfortunately there are many who aren't asking questions because they are interested in the answers, but know exactly what they intend to do, and are asking for the blessing of the forum.

Yes, there are obviously some of them. However, if that is how they are, I don't see that giving advice (contrary to what they want to hear) actually makes things any worse, even if they ignore it.

Kind Regards, John

 

[caffreys]

My problem with notification is this,
I have pretty bad social phobia - I find using telephones extremely difficult (I had to get a gas pipe capped off recently and took me 2 weeks to sort out a fitter - causing some delay).
You may laugh but it's not funny to me.
I research and read as much as I can (I find posting to forums like this hard too) and generally over engineer everything I do - triple checking everything I do as i'm a bit ocd too
I post here just to make sure i'm doing it ok and none of the work ive done has killed me yet!

 

[ajstoneservices]

none of the work ive done has killed me yet!

I'm pleased hear that because I can't stand ghost writers

 

[JohnW2]

My problem with notification is this, I have pretty bad social phobia - I find using telephones extremely difficult (I had to get a gas pipe capped off recently and took me 2 weeks to sort out a fitter - causing some delay). You may laugh but it's not funny to me. I research and read as much as I can (I find posting to forums like this hard too) and generally over engineer everything I do - triple checking everything I do as i'm a bit ocd too I post here just to make sure i'm doing it ok and none of the work ive done has killed me yet!

That's obviously an extremely unusual, and very specific, reason for having a problem with notification, so it would not apply to hardly anyone else. The notification process, per se, is done in writing and I presume that, were it necessary, you could arrange for someone else to deal with most/all of the interaction with your local authority. However, given that you seem to have decided not to notify (when you should), your approach of trying to work as safely as possible is obviously the best way to go.

Kind Regards, John