Getting electrical work approved

[bazmdiy]

Very many thanks to all responders for the replies posted. I hope the info will benefit other forum users.

 

[JohnW2]

I have just got off the phone to the LABC. At first the girl wanted to charge £275 for a new building notice but then she put me through to an actual inspector. After I explained the matter he said he would send me a regularisation form which effectively retrospectively updates the Building Notice. Then the LABC will send an electrician to do an inspection. I think I am very lucky. Maybe the LABC is like the Inland Revenue - not so bad when you talk to them

That sounds promising - as I said, that was one of the possible outcomes if you found a "decent/reasonable human being" to talk to.

However, without wanting to be a 'wet blanket', are you sure that this is not going to have significant financial consequences? LABCs generally charge appreciable fees (sometimes double what the Building Notice would have cost in the first place) for retrospective 'regularisation' procedures. Again, hopefully the people you spoke to are sensible enough that this will not happen in your case!

Kind Regards, John

 

[bazmdiy]

Hi JohnW2 - thats right but it is not costing a penny more. As I said Vive le Building Inspectors (in North Herts)

Actually it seems a reasonable solution. The original Building Notice electrical works about notifiable work should have been filled in because the planning application included a shower room and kitchen and works in these "special areas" are notifiable.

Officially the LABC could have insisted on a new Building Notice application at a cost of £275 but as it was an oversight (maybe on both sides) they chose to be reasonable.

Thanks for reply.

 

[JohnW2]

Hi JohnW2 - thats right but it is not costing a penny more. As I said Vive le Building Inspectors (in North Herts)

That's obviously good.

Actually it seems a reasonable solution. The original Building Notice electrical works about notifiable work should have been filled in because the planning application included a shower room and kitchen and works in these "special areas" are notifiable.

Electrical work in kitchens is actually no longer notifiable, per se - so is not notifiable unless it is for other reasons (e.g. new circuits). Shower rooms are, indeed "special locations" but electrical work in them is only notifiable if within the prescribed 'zones' (essentially, within 600mm of a bath/shower and less than 2.25mm above floor level) - hence none of the electrical work is notifiable in some bathrooms. However, an electric shower obviously would be 'within zones', and hence notifiable.

Kind Regards, John

 

[bazmdiy]

Hi John - this is news to me... maybe good news.

The extension is a replacement and the electrical works (lighting/sockets) use the original feeds from the house. I thought they would be considered new circuits. If they are not and therefore not notifiable then the only item that would need inspection is the new electric cooker (the shower room extractor fan is much more than 600mm from shower etc). Can it be that I can build an extension with new lighting and socketry wiring and not have to present some sort of certificate of approval? Also the cooker was connected by a Part P registered electrician.

Thanks for new slant on regs.

 

[ericmark]

Thank you for sharing the results.

Yes it does seem you can do most things in England without costing money. Really good news.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

NOTE:

Even when electrical work is not notifiable, it still has to comply with Part P.

So when non-notifiable electrical work is being done as part of a larger project which is notifiable, then the LABC will want to see proof that the electrical work complied with the Building Regulations.

 

[JohnW2]

Hi John - this is news to me... maybe good news. ... The extension is a replacement and the electrical works (lighting/sockets) use the original feeds from the house. I thought they would be considered new circuits.

There has been a lot of discussion, here and elsewhere, about what constitutes a 'new circuit' (which would be notifiable) but I'm sure that some would argue that if it is using a pre-existing feed, then it amounts to modification and/or extension of an 'existing circuit', and therefore is not notifiable.

If they are not and therefore not notifiable then the only item that would need inspection is the new electric cooker (the shower room extractor fan is much more than 600mm from shower etc).

Are you saying that the cooker is on a 'new circuit', and hence needs notification for that reason? Do I take it that there is no electric shower - since, as I said, that would inevitably be 'within bathroom zones', and hence notifiable?

Can it be that I can build an extension with new lighting and socketry wiring and not have to present some sort of certificate of approval?

I'm not sure what attitiude LABCs take to 'non-notifiable electrical work' which is part of a project in which they already have an interest but, in terms of 'notifiability', per se, it would certainly be possible to build an extension which involved no 'notifiable electrical work' if all the electrics in the extension were achieved by 'extending existing circuits'.

Also the cooker was connected by a Part P registered electrician.

If it was a new circuit, hence notifiable, unless it was 'self-certified' by the electrician who did it, it would need to be notified to LABC in the usual way.

Kind Regards, John

 

[bazmdiy]

Hi John thanks again for succinctly put explanations. All the while during these posts I have really only been concerned that the electrical work is safe for my family and is done to Building Regs and has had professional third party approval. I am also concerned that a future purchaser of our property should be in no doubt that the work is to a high standard - not forgetting the home insurance company.

So whilst I could argue with the inspector that the work is an extension of an existing circuit I would rather accept his generous offer to send an LABC approved electrician to inspect the lot!

Yes the cooker is a new circuit because I stripped out the old 6mm cable and clipped a new 10mm cable to the underside of the floor joists. I left one tail at the consumer unit and the other at a cooker switch. The electrician stripped the old 6mm tail from the CU and connected 10mm. He also swopped out the 32A mcb for a 50A (the new cooker is theoretically 14,8KW with every thing on max). He then connected cooker end to a cooker switch and outlet I installed. All the cabling was visible for his inspection and he seemed pleased with the job. Including the new 50A MCB and his time it cost me the princely sum of £60 (albeit cash!) - thats cheaper than Currys charge and I dont think they would have gone near the CU. Mind you he has been an electrician for about 40 years. It was a joy to see how he could estimate wire tail lengths and stripped ends - a bit like picasso with a paint brush but with only a pair of plier cutters and a screw driver. When he finished it looked as if the connections had been done by computer.

On the other side I had a young guy (studying but not yet qualified) that charged £120 to install a mains bond earth from kitchen copper pipe to electricity supplier earth!

Regards Barry

 

[JohnW2]

So whilst I could argue with the inspector that the work is an extension of an existing circuit I would rather accept his generous offer to send an LABC approved electrician to inspect the lot!

Fair enough. When they send out sub-contracted electricians to undertake inspections, they often 'pass on' that electrician's fee. Do I take it that you have been assured that this will not happen?

Yes the cooker is a new circuit because I stripped out the old 6mm cable and clipped a new 10mm cable to the underside of the floor joists. I left one tail at the consumer unit and the other at a cooker switch. The electrician stripped the old 6mm tail from the CU and connected 10mm. He also swopped out the 32A mcb for a 50A (the new cooker is theoretically 14,8KW with every thing on max). He then connected cooker end to a cooker switch and outlet I installed.

Yes, in terms of common sense, I would certainly call that a 'new circuit' - although I'm sure that there are those out there who would try to argue that it was a 'modification' to the existing circuit

On the other side I had a young guy (studying but not yet qualified) that charged £120 to install a mains bond earth from kitchen copper pipe to electricity supplier earth!

Hmmmm!

Kind Regards, John

 

[bazmdiy]

Hi John,

The LABC accepted my claim that it was a form filling oversight and agreed to retrospectively modify the Building Notice i.e. its as if I had filled in the electrical works section on the original building notice form. Whether I would have paid a higher fee originally is a moot point. No mention of an additional fee was made so I am not expecting to pay extra. However, I am waiting for a "regularisation" form to fill in and that may contain a nasty surprise.

On the subject of arguing whether a circuit is new or not I think DIYer's should get expert approval of electrical works. I can imagine that pride, stubbornness and macho attitudes have caused a fair share of tragedies.

As an example of DIY clumsiness I cut an old cooker cable at the Consumer Unit (after switching off power at the mcb and mains). I then switched on at the mains and waited for the electrician to connect a new 10mm cable. When he arrived I showed him the CU and pointed to the 32A MCB that he had to change. In pointing I touched the mcb switch and there was an almighty orange flash and bang. Cutting the 6mm had caused the wires to touch.

Regards Barry







Regards Barry

 

[ban-all-sheds]

On the other side I had a young guy (studying but not yet qualified) that charged £120 to install a mains bond earth from kitchen copper pipe to electricity supplier earth!

What was this copper pipe?

 

[bazmdiy]

Hi Ban-all-sheds

Mains water into house is via 22mm plastic pipe that reduces to 15mm copper for kitchen tap. Mains bonding is to copper pipe.

Couldn't agree more about sheds. They seem to breed. On the other hand there could be a lot of electrical work going for you to fit lighting and in particular those infernal security lights that stay on all night.

Thanks for reply

 

[ericmark]

As JojnW2 has already said the phrase new circuit has been talked about many times. Ripping out a whole circuit and replacing it may not be considered as new. The IET/BSi defines a circuit as "An assembly of electrical equipment supplied from the same origin and protected against over current by the same protective device(s)." this would mean adding a fused connection unit (FCU) would be adding a new circuit but under Part P that is not considered as a new circuit which in turn means we have no Part P definition.

But as far as you are concerned the problem is Installation and Minor works certificates which the LABC do not need to give you. You will get a completion certificate but not the Installation and Minor works certificates.

It may seem daft but you are permitted to wire a house to any EU standard it does not need to be British you could install German "Schuko" CEE 7/4 plug and socket and the LABC has to ensure it is to German standard but as a scheme member British electricians could not fit these sockets they don't comply with British regulations so a British electrician would not pass them but the LABC inspector may. As a result the standard installation certificate presents a problem for the LABC inspector so he is not required to issue one.

However house buyers may want to see these certificates although in theroy there is nothing to stop you filling them in. The real problem is the test gear needed for the reading which are entered on the forms.

Since I have the test gear not a problem for me but I would think most electricians testing your house would not be worried at giving you the readings after all he only needs to call out the readings and for you to make notes. One installation certificate method would be inquiry and it would be your signature. Nothing wrong with that. But clearly you would need to ask the electrician to give you readings at the time it would be no good after.

On the original Part P the LABC were not permitted to charge for inspecting and testing. But later the rules were changed and if they use outside contractors they can pass on the cost but still can't charge for their own time.

The outside contractor is doing an EICR the LABC then on the basis of this pass or fail the installation. The EICR is done to todays standards not the standard at the time of installation.

 

[JohnW2]

Hi John, The LABC accepted my claim that it was a form filling oversight and agreed to retrospectively modify the Building Notice i.e. its as if I had filled in the electrical works section on the original building notice form. Whether I would have paid a higher fee originally is a moot point. No mention of an additional fee was made so I am not expecting to pay extra. However, I am waiting for a "regularisation" form to fill in and that may contain a nasty surprise.

As you say, only time will tell.

On the subject of arguing whether a circuit is new or not I think DIYer's should get expert approval of electrical works. I can imagine that pride, stubbornness and macho attitudes have caused a fair share of tragedies.

There are, fortunately, very few tragedies - there are less domestic deaths in the UK due to electricity than due to DIY use of ladders, power tools etc. and, of course, many/most of what few electrical deaths there are may not have anything to do with poor DIY work. However, I obviously would not suggest that as a reason or excuse for complacency. The introduction of the concept of notifiable electrical work in 2005 was, of course, meant to be a step towards achieving the oversight you would like, but the relaxations (in England, not Wales) in notification requirements in 2013 turned the whole thing into little more than a joke. There is now very little electrical work which remains notifiable (in England).

Kind Regards, John