God

In the future I think church ministers and religious officials will just be community support workers, with the occasional mention of god,

In the 1960's I knew a vicar who did just that, in fact he admitted to me ( in confidence ) that he no longer believed in God. He provided social and community support to people who would never admit they needed such support. They would never have gone to a community centre and went to church to be "closer to God". It was while in church that they got the community support they needed.
 
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Mike,

You're cheating a bit by claiming energy created everything therefore if people believe god created everything then energy is god and god is energy.

That's fair enough for you but I am sure the god in question is the familiar omnipotent, omniscient, infallible being who people believe will and does look after them as long as they behave themselves.
Clearly there are millions in the world whom this being does not look after. It would be easy to say that they are all sinners but it is not the case, is it?

That there are different gods but one of them says there is only one is patently untrue so the one cannot be plausible, can it?

As for intelligence of believers - most of the religions would appear to be the result of one or a few people hearing the word of god, sometimes even through another - i.e. voices. Perhaps hearing voices and replying to them is not a sign of lack of intelligence but such a delusion in any other field would be thought undesirable and the result of something wrong.
This one exception is not logical, is it? Therefore the whole premise is flawed, isn't it?

The perpetuation of the myth by those in charge in order to control people and feather their own nest is one of the worst aspects of religion but blindly accepted by even those asked, in the most extreme case, to forego their own life when promised illogical rewards when dead.

So, is credulity a sign of inferior intelligence?
 
In the future I think church ministers and religious officials will just be community support workers, with the occasional mention of god,

In the 1960's I knew a vicar who did just that, in fact he admitted to me ( in confidence ) that he no longer believed in God. He provided social and community support to people who would never admit they needed such support. They would never have gone to a community centre and went to church to be "closer to God". It was while in church that they got the community support they needed.

Ironically 'religion' may prove to be more a unifying force now than ever in it's history for these sorts of reasons. After having been stripped down through critiscm and cynicism perhaps it'll re-emerge without all the frilly *******s and power trippers - for the better.
 
eflempudence, your question is so complex and requires a very lengthy answer and explanation, which will require all the energy that there is in our universe, i am sure you don't want me to do this do you? but I will just sum it up in 3 or 4 lines:

Those who are Religious, they failed to understand God
Those who understand God failed to understand Religions.
Both are man made and they both exist. it is how one sees and spreads his views on others. this includes Scientist and Religious bodies.
 
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Oh. That's very good.

I'm obviously arguing with the wrong one. I thought you were a believer.
You got it mate, I do not believe in any Religion, but indeed in a Creator, call him what you like, I prefer to know him as Supreme Energy and the Master source of all things.

This will spin your head, either in left spin or in right spin, this would depend on your level of intellect.

Head can spin and if you ask anyone who has had one too many, he will tell you how fast his head is spinning and in which direction, again do not confuse the direction, if you see surrounding images spinning to left, that really means your head is actually spinning in the right direction (I call it right spin drunk) and if you see images spinning in right direction you are left spin drunk. If you do not have any spin, that means you are sober, and intelligent. (intelligent people drink but don't get carried away like some religious fanatics, who get drunk on bullshit they get to stuff in their heads))
 
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Ah, but neither your head nor the room is spinning; it's all in the mind.
Now you got it, well done, everything that there is, and that we feel and see is called realisation, and it happens in our head. we do not actually exist and there is absolutely nothing anywhere, even we are not anything or made of any physical matter, we are simply a thought, we think and we think we felt something, or we saw something we live in a dream world, the universe does not actually exists, but we think it does, because we see it in our head so we think it must exists, and we have proven this again and again, but that is false because it is realisation that we are feeling and seeing, we feel we are sitting on a chair, but cahir is just an imaginary thing and we feel our bottom is resting on it, we don't really have a bottom! we think we have a head, even our head does not exist, we think we are thinking, even that is not true, we are just a dream. now let me see how many pints I have had.....two i think!
 
Mike. A few weeks back in another thread, I mentioned that one of my younger students asked if he could talk about his thoughts on Fabocinni, instead of going over particular maths problems. I agreed and for 2 hours he spoke without my interrupting once. Today, he did the same again and spoke for another 2 hours, again on Fabocinni and again without interruption from me. And when I logged on here a few minutes ago and read your replies to this thread, I realised that you and he were of the same mould and that I could listen to you both for hours on end.
But don't get me wrong Mike. I am not saying that I agree with everything you say, far from it especially on this thread! It's the passion with which you speak that gets to me. I'm giving a talk in France in a few weeks time (strikes permitting), and if I can get my message across with as much enthusiasm, as you manage to do here, I will be more than happy.

The following text is a selection of Mike' s replies, to this thread strung together. They don't necessarily have to be read to understand just how prolific he can be. Just look!

I know for fact God Buddha exists, he blessed Leicester football team which had odds of 1 chance of winning in 5000! Not sure if other Gods are still alive or merely having a long sleep, but i am sure one day when they awake up, friends be prepared there won't be any quarks left in the entire universe. There can be 1 God, but there can be 2 Gods too , but there can be no God too, how much intelligent do you need to be to work out that probability?

Yes they won against all odds, thats a fact, Buddha's blessing done it, thats a fact, so you don't go around beating the bush either and tell your son that 49/50th of the world's population can't be wrong, and 1/50th is where I would say lies the problem and requires updating intelligence.

BTW, there is no such thing as beating around the bush in reality, so you need to update your intelligence. (update version is beating around the quarks)
Fatfred, you really wanted to say that people who believe in a God are of lower intelligence, and you used your inquisitive son into this, I wonder how old your son is, and if he knows anything about Quantum Physics and the theory of entanglement ? If he knows already, well and good but if not, he can see educational videos on Utube. (I have hand picked one below.)

He would realise that intelligence has nothing to do with God believing, certain things cannot be seen, detected, or otherwise, take subatomic particles that can behave strangely when being observed, and when not being observed, or when we want to observe something we think should exist, but upon searching everywhere we don't find it and we get very disappointed, but worry not, it is not the end of the universe, God has tricks up his sleeve, God is a quark too, spinning left and sometimes right, other times when you want to try and catch him he does a runner, hence no one has been able to catch him so far, but he is there according to quantum mechanics, but we cannot see everything that there is, 85% of the matter is unseen, or dark matter and dark Energy, and some things can be at two place at once, if you try to be at two places at once, you would split your groin, in which case one could say fatfred has balls in two places at once, I hope that makes sense.

Quantum physics defies logic as we know, did I not tell you when we last discussed about God that he is energy, so are you saying Energy does not exist? There is both negative and positive energy, when in equilibrium, there is zero net result or Nothing, when a small fluctuation occurs ( who causes this fluctuation I don't know or how this small fluctuation occurs i don't know) but something must cause this small fluctuation and the net result of negative and positive energy becomes imbalanced, and this can result in either negative or positive energy dominating over its counterpart, if positive energy wins, all hell breaks loose, and a mighty bang occurs and a universe is created, the rest is all science, I don't know why a small fluctuation occurred and who caused it, but common sense says it must have been caused by something or someone we cannot see. Nothing ever happens or moves unless someone pokes a finger.

After all things don't just happen by themselves do they?


Here is a hand picked link for you and your son to improve your intellect (no offence take) we all have duffere#nt levels of intellect yet we believe in things one way or another, hence God believing or Atheism does not require intellect.


Now don't be surprised i for a change brought Science into God thread to explain why some of you cannot see God!:cool: But I can see him everywhere at once, and yet at the same time when I am trying to ask him a question he dodges me as if he hadn't seen me, he doesn't like entangling with us directly, he might send his representative and answer our questions that we have for him. God says use your loaf he has given you, he can't help it if we are so thick!
eflempudence, your question is so complex and requires a very lengthy answer and explanation, which will require all the energy that there is in our universe, i am sure you don't want me to do this do you? but I will just sum it up in 3 or 4 lines:

Those who are Religious, they failed to understand God
Those who understand God failed to understand Religions.
Both are man made and they both exist. it is how one sees and spreads his views on others. this includes Scientist and Religious bodies.
You got it mate, I do not believe in any Religion, but indeed in a Creator, call him what you like, I prefer to know him as Supreme Energy and the Master source of all things.

This will spin your head, either in left spin or in right spin, this would depend on your level of intellect.

Head can spin and if you ask anyone who has had one too many, he will tell you how fast his head is spinning and in which direction, again do not confuse the direction, if you see surrounding images spinning to left, that really means your head is actually spinning in the right direction (I call it right spin drunk) and if you see images spinning in right direction you are left spin drunk. If you do not have any spin, that means you are sober, and intelligent. (intelligent people drink but don't get carried away like some religious fanatics, who get drunk on bullshit they get to stuff in their heads))

100% true big-all and I can't stop thinking about it! To be honest, apart from one poster I would really love to meet in person, I've never given a second thought to the sort of people who are behind the various user names. However, now that I've encountered one, I have started to wonder. BTW, I held back on the details of my fellow travellers description.

Fatfred, you really wanted to say that people who believe in a God are of lower intelligence, and you used your inquisitive son into this, I wonder how old your son is, and if he knows anything about Quantum Physics and the theory of entanglement ? If he knows already, well and good but if not, he can see educational videos on Utube.

.
 
For Mike.

clapping-happy-smiley-emoticon.gif
 
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Mike. A few weeks back in another thread, I mentioned that one of my younger students asked if he could talk about his thoughts on Fabocinni, instead of going over particular maths problems. I agreed and for 2 hours he spoke without my interrupting once. Today, he did the same again and spoke for another 2 hours, again on Fabocinni and again without interruption from me. And when I logged on here a few minutes ago and read your replies to this thread, I realised that you and he were of the same mould and that I could listen to you both for hours on end.
But don't get me wrong Mike. I am not saying that I agree with everything you say, far from it especially on this thread! It's the passion with which you speak that gets to me. I'm giving a talk in France in a few weeks time (strikes permitting), and if I can get my message across with as much enthusiasm, as you manage to do here, I will be more than happy.

LOL! well good luck with your presentation or talk, and I hope you'll make it there despite fuel strike, you didn't say what subject you were going to talk about, I might have given you some tips! (only joking the French wouldn't understand my sense of humour and logic) BTW, I ran a programme on my computer and came up with a probability factor of God's existence, it asked me one question, have I searched every corner of the universe, and I said no, it then said well in that case there is a very high probability, I asked what do you mean by high probability, it answered how much of the universe have I explored, I said probably 0.0000000000000000000000001% (1 x 10 to -24) that is based on how much I have explored universe, I have been to Barcelona, I have been to Paris, I seen Florida, and New York, and I haven't even seen Kew gardens, so the computer suggested that I keep looking until I find him and that there being a God is extremely likely.
 
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you didn't say what subject you were going to talk about

........that is because the subject of my talk is the subject of a rather lengthy thread on another (work related) forum and I don't have the time to discuss the topic in parallel here.

the French wouldn't understand my logic)

Mike. If the members of this forum can understand your logic, then apart from the language barrier which is easily overcome, I can't see any reason why the French can't do likewise.

BTW, did you know that + or - 10 years ago, a Dr Stephen (?) Unwin published a book or paper on the probability of the existence of God and came up with 67% in favour?
 
Surely it's 50-50; she either does or does not.

It's not down to chance, is it?





Also, what does + or - 10 years ago mean? :)
 
Efl, the probability obviously depends on how much of the universe have we explored, take for instant, if you have 100, 000,000,000 (100 Billion) bins hidden everywhere on our earth, at various random places, and one of the bins contains a diamond twice as big as the Queens' Diamond, (the biggest so far we have unearthed I believe) all the rest of the bins are either empty or contain something else, so what probability is there of anyone unearthing that biggest diamond?
Answer is 1 in 100 Billion, but if we were to really get 100 billion bins and actually put a diamond inside one of the bins, does that not tell you that one day perhaps we can strike lucky, and find that diamond. If we spend 5000 years and gone through 10 Billion bins so far, and still have not unearthed that diamond, does that mean that we can conclude that the diamond probably doesn't exists? Indeed that is what many would conclude wrongly, because for one thing we don'[t really know true well how big is our universe, so far it is a guess work, based on another probability, and calculations, which are based on best judgement or observation, nothing based of factual reality and based on our best understanding so far of our universe.

remember in our example, we still have 90 Billion bins to unearth.
 
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