OK I wasn't going to continue this one here But I'll answer your questions.
Silly or sensible? well as there is no definition in the regs as to where the fixed installation stops we will never ever know the answer.
Green and yellow wires not used as earth and missing earths.
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Silly or sensible? well as there is no definition in the regs as to where the fixed installation stops we will never ever know the answer.
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We may well never know what the regs intended, but you presumably have a view as to whether it would be silly or sensible for my TV to be coded on an EICR because, although plugged in to a BS1363 socket it is 'fixed to the building' and has a 2-core mains cable?
Kind Regards, John
It’s something which we’ve all heard of and can describe but doesn’t actually exist, so it’s pointless discussing it.
Every plug and socket arrangement I’ve ever seen for low voltage use has a terminal specifically labelled as earth, and generally makes first and breaks last. You are merely dreaming up more obscure and ridiculous things and examples to try and prove your point, which I no longer have any idea what it actually is anymore.
If you were to replace the TV, would you remove the flex from the FCU and replace it with the flex attached to the new TV or would you take both TVs in bits and leave the old flex in place?
No CPC required. Once you start providing real world scenarios it’s easy to tell you what the regs require.
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Answered in a new thread EICR, etc
It is current using equipment connected to a point in wiring, so no CPC required if it is class II as stated in BS7671
As I said, if the equipment required 5 'live' cores (but no earth) and have 5-core cable then, as I said, even if there were a sixth terminal designated as 'earth', and connected to earth at the upstream end (e.g. boiler), there would be nothing connected to the corresponding terminal on the downstream ('cable') side of the plug/socket.
Kind Regards, John
What is this mythical device that requires a 5 core supply and no earth? How long is the cable run? Is it attached to the fabric of the building? Is the device attached to the fabric of the building?
Firstly, you seem to be muddling 'your' definitions/views and SUNRAY's. My comment that you've picked up on was a reply to SUNRAY, whose view is that if something fixed to the building' (like some of my TVs are) is 'part of the electrical installation, and therefore has to have a CPC run to it, regardless of anything else (e.g. even if it is plugged into a 13A socket. I do not personally see that as particularly sensible.
Your view, if I understand it correctly, is a lot more sensible, in that you have talked about whether or not the item can ('easily') or would be replaced without replacing the cable's - so, per that thinking, we are agreed that it is sensible to say that no CPC would be required.
However, what about situations (and I have some) in which items (probably not TVs but, certainly some monitors) which are 'fixed to the building' and which (for reasons I cannot remember clearly) are fed by cables from FCUs which plug in to the back of the item. In those cane, I can (and have done) replaced the item without changing the cable - so, in that case, does, or does not, at least the cable constitute 'part of the installation' which, per your view, has to have a CPC?
Kind Regards, John
Ah, that's a new term in this discussion
Are you now saying that something which is "current using equipment" does not count as being part of the 'electrical installation' and therefore, if Class II, does not have to have a CPC run to it?If so, given that BS7671 defines current using equipment" as "Equipment which converts electrical energy into another form of energy, such as light,
heat or motive power.", would that not mean that the Class II items which we most commonly tell people they must run CPCs to (particularly light fittings and fans) do not, per what you say above, actually have to have CPCs run to them?
Kind Regards, John
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It seems the government got it wrong, they have linked to BS 7671 except for what is considered as the electrical installation, so until a court rules there is no answer.
I was say anything which would be considered as electrical equipment is not an electrical installation. The installation takes electrical power to point of use, and the equipment uses it.
Where is gets a little harder is when the equipment is made from many parts, and what to class the bits that joint it, be it a power supply and lamp, or thermostat and immersion heater the cable which joins to two parts has to be tested so is it a lead set and tested with the inspection and testing of in-service electrical equipment or is it part of the electrical installation and be included in that report? For ease I will call it PAT and EICR, if it comes under PAT testing then can be class II and if under EICR with the exception of the pendent part of a lamp then can't have class II, but this leaves light fittings as being part of a PAT test which does not seems right.
So reading what has been said so far, it would seem where a number of cables connect a wiring centre to a boiler then only one of those cables needs to carry the earth, so the other cables could have the earth wire over marked, but where a single cable supplies a thermostat and the like an earth must be run, when using low voltage.
How about extra low voltage, be it a light connected to a power supply, or a door bell, or the 24 or 48 volt supply to a thermostat, does it still require an earth, I would not have dreamed running an earth to the door bell, I would say it is SELV and it would be against the regulations to earth it, but for it to be isolated we look at the sign
means safety isolating control gear with short circuit protection which is made up of:-
which means a transformer and
means isolating transformer
means non short circuit proof isolating control gear
means short circuit proof isolating control gear. So the big question is where the boiler used 24 volt control what type of supply does it have? I selected a random boiler installation manual and looked to see what is said about the 24 volt supply, it calls the 24 volt supply low voltage although it should be called extra low voltage and I could find nothing to say if SELV, FELV, or PELV so no idea if earth required or not.
So still non the wiser.
I was say anything which would be considered as electrical equipment is not an electrical installation. The installation takes electrical power to point of use, and the equipment uses it.
Where is gets a little harder is when the equipment is made from many parts, and what to class the bits that joint it, be it a power supply and lamp, or thermostat and immersion heater the cable which joins to two parts has to be tested so is it a lead set and tested with the inspection and testing of in-service electrical equipment or is it part of the electrical installation and be included in that report? For ease I will call it PAT and EICR, if it comes under PAT testing then can be class II and if under EICR with the exception of the pendent part of a lamp then can't have class II, but this leaves light fittings as being part of a PAT test which does not seems right.
So reading what has been said so far, it would seem where a number of cables connect a wiring centre to a boiler then only one of those cables needs to carry the earth, so the other cables could have the earth wire over marked, but where a single cable supplies a thermostat and the like an earth must be run, when using low voltage.
How about extra low voltage, be it a light connected to a power supply, or a door bell, or the 24 or 48 volt supply to a thermostat, does it still require an earth, I would not have dreamed running an earth to the door bell, I would say it is SELV and it would be against the regulations to earth it, but for it to be isolated we look at the sign
So still non the wiser.
Until recently, I would have said that "it's never going to happen" (the question ever getting into Court). However it seems that we now have a situation in which the question of whether or not particular things are within the scope of an EICR has come to be of considerable importance to landlords, so it's not impossible that some of the larger landlords will try to challenge what is happening ion Court.
As you will have seen, RF has now introduced the concept of 'current using equipment' into the discussion, and I think that's probably opened up even more uncertainties! (also see discussion in SUNRAY's new thread)
Kind Regards, John
As I said to SUNRAY, that is what the regs in BS7671 appear to say, very clearly and unambiguously.
Kind Regards, John
I didn’t introduce it. It is what is written in BS7671.
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I find the phrase "current using equipment" in relation to bathrooms and swimming pools, but not in the general part of BS 7671:2008 must be some thing only found in BS 7671:2018? It is not really plain as to what it refers to, all electrical equipment uses current, but it seems to refer to items other than lights.
I would not say unambiguously,
Note the full stop. It then continues
And it seems to be talking about the use of a green-and-yellow as a PEN conductor, I would say if they meant to say multi-cored cables may have their green/yellow core over marked at the terminations that is what it would say, what to my mind it is saying is the green/yellow of a multi-cored cable can be used as a PEN but not a single core cable, which makes some sense as one could select a single core cable and use a C crimp and connect to other items requiring an earth, common where explosive gases may be present. So there is a need along its length to identify if an earth or PEN conductor.
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