Heat pumps and noise

[ajohn]

It was a problem many years ago when people were mugged off into getting condensing boilers. They ran a bit cooler than traditional boilers, and if the old rads were only just enough with the old boiler, the difference was noticeable with a steamer.

Seems to match my impression - correctly designed rad system with a condenser system will reduce costs but needs bigger rad area. LOL Reminds me of another forum where this cropped up. A bloke thought do it properly expecting more business but few would pay the extra so chose another way of earning a living.

This whole area reminds me of Sweden. The house has losses so add heating to make up for that with some safety margin. They never turn the heating off in winter as heat up time would be too long. On an industrial building - worse as it took the heating 4days for the slab to get up to heat. I used to work there for a few weeks every year in mid winter. Well several years.

 

[aveatry]

For these low level heat sources like underfloor heating for them to work properly then they need to on constantly - useless in this country with the way our temperature swings 5 degrees today - its going to be 16 tomorrow and wont need the same heating as early this week - but I suppose you could open a window and let the heat out. Where is that saving money - its a scam

 

[robinbanks]

Does anyone on here have a heat pump or a neighbour in close proximity who has? And if yes what is the noise like at night?

I do, and bolted to my house wall right underneath my bedroom window too. Inaudible through the double glazing. The tyre noise from the road is far greater. They do not hum like your vacuum cleaner

why are they not fitted as standard in all new builds

Heat pumps probably will be when it becomes illegal to fit new boilers. Personally I'm all for it; a monobloc HP paired with a open vent thermal store is completely DIYable, no G3 in sight

For these low level heat sources like underfloor heating for them to work properly then they need to on constantly

First accurate, non alarmist, non sneering indication you have an open mind I've seen in this thread

useless in this country with the way our temperature swings 5 degrees today

It doesn't matter - your well insulated, excellently draughtproofed house (how all houses should be built, regardless that few are) will ride out the fluctuations in external temp; insulation works both ways

I suppose you could open a window and let the heat out

You really don't need to, the world doesn't change temperature fast enough to be intolerable to a properly set up control system of any kind of heating

 

[aveatry]

I do, and bolted to my house wall right underneath my bedroom window too. Inaudible through the double glazing. The tyre noise from the road is far greater. They do not hum like your vacuum cleaner


Heat pumps probably will be when it becomes illegal to fit new boilers. Personally I'm all for it; a monobloc HP paired with a open vent thermal store is completely DIYable, no G3 in sight


First accurate, non alarmist, non sneering indication you have an open mind I've seen in this thread


It doesn't matter - your well insulated, excellently draughtproofed house (how all houses should be built, regardless that few are) will ride out the fluctuations in external temp; insulation works both ways


You really don't need to, the world doesn't change temperature fast enough to be intolerable to a properly set up control system of any kind of heating

Yes this is what is needed quality input and conversation and not just stupid posts about tinfoil.

You really don't need to, the world doesn't change temperature fast enough to be intolerable to a properly set up control system of any kind of heating

But this country certainly dose change fast, we are +20 degrees thereabouts in the space of 5 days.

 

[aveatry]

For these low level heat sources like underfloor heating for them to work properly then they need to on constantly -

First accurate, non alarmist, non sneering indication you have an open mind I've seen in this thread

I wonder which is cheaper to run an under floor system on constantly in all weathers during the season it is on. Or my gas fired condensing boiler that we flick on for an hour or 2 a day if its cold. And some days not at all - like tomorrow 16 degrees. Also underfloor heating on all night - is it the same temp as the day.

 

[diy_fun_uk]

Government is completely schizo on all this. One minute it's sell more ssh!te, buy more ssh!te - we need you to consume more ssh!te to keep the economy going. Next it's panic because everyone is using and consuming too much ssh!te and they're saying it's bad for the environment. They need to make their minds up, do they want a red in tooth and claw US type economy or not.

Great point.

 

[robinbanks]

The more modern units have weather comp built in, having most of the gubbins outside. Mine is a bit older and I did well; I got one of the last non ErP marked units before the hinge changed and they weren't allowed to be fitted - was it March '16? I can't quite remember but there was a date beyond which non ERP units couldn't be installed and signed up to the RHI grant. I found an installer wanting shut of his stock quickly and fitted a 12kW (heat output not electrical consumption) Vaillant unit for a total cost of about 5K, on a grant that was worth about 7.. My father in law was in the same boat but chose a different unit that was more, newer, ErP marked, I think he paid about 12 but got a slightly better grant rate that meant his grant was worth 9

I do think they're overpriced, because they're novel. When they become as ubiquitous as air con is in Spain we'll probably see them for a several hundred quid a unit rather than several thousand. Notionally they're no different to a fridge, except in reverse

It's typically called on to heat the house about 2 months of the year; a large amounts of the self build budget went on Kingspan and hours of time meticulously applying vapour control and breather membranes to the timber frame part of the structure for a house that has no draughts and can get away with such a comparatively small heat source despite being a conversion and hence not having total flexibility in terms of orientation and glazing for max solar gain

We did look at ground source, and have the space for a lateral one, but at the time the sums were eye watering and the grant didn't pay it all.

 

[diy_fun_uk]

I do, and bolted to my house wall right underneath my bedroom window too. Inaudible through the double glazing. The tyre noise from the road is far greater. They do not hum like your vacuum cleaner

I'm not daft I understand the noise they emit will relatively speaking be low. However my point is the surrounding area where I sleep is completely quiet at might, zero external noise. Cul-de-sac backing onto another cul-de-sac so no through traffic etc.

I suspect even a low level hum from one of these things would be noticeable in that scenario, as I say even more so if the units aren't properly maintained.

 

[robinbanks]

I wonder which is cheaper to run an under floor system on constantly in all weathers

It kinda boils down to how much heat your loses and when you need to use the house. Your house loses heat in a predictable way depending on draughts, temp difference between inside and out etc, and you can spend on minimising its heat loss so you can get away with a small heat source, or you can spend money on adding heat and suffering a greater loss rate

For me, I work at home and having it sit at 19 degrees constantly, the heating running for about 3-4 hours a day topping the screed slab up makes sense. I couldn't really operate a blast on/off pattern anyway because the slab takes so long to heat but that was known and designed for before the house was built

It does irk me that heat pump sellers push the notion that they can be drop in replacement for gas boilers - it's just not true. More consideration has to be given to factors surrounding heat loss and generations and I firmly believe that heat pumps are not suitable for at least 80% of the homes in the country as they stand right now, because we have a decrepit housing stock, ill insulated and draughty as hell. That's not to say they couldn't be improved..

It's more than possible to build houses they do not require a formal heating system at all, but few builders on these shores are skilled/caring enough nor native designers experienced enough to see it through to happening in a big way

I suspect even a low level hum

Sure, it's an understandable point. Boilers make a noise too, as does traffic activity. Mine makes a noise like a desk fan on speed 1; i don't know what word I'd use to describe that kind of noise but it's not really a hum - it fades quite easily into the background

 

[aveatry]

The more modern units have weather comp built in, having most of the gubbins outside. Mine is a bit older and I did well; I got one of the last non ErP marked units before the hinge changed and they weren't allowed to be fitted - was it March '16? I can't quite remember but there was a date beyond which non ERP units couldn't be installed and signed up to the RHI grant. I found an installer wanting shut of his stock quickly and fitted a 12kW (heat output not electrical consumption) Vaillant unit for a total cost of about 5K, on a grant that was worth about 7.. My father in law was in the same boat but chose a different unit that was more, newer, ErP marked, I think he paid about 12 but got a slightly better grant rate that meant his grant was worth 9

I do think they're overpriced, because they're novel. When they become as ubiquitous as air con is in Spain we'll probably see them for a several hundred quid a unit rather than several thousand. Notionally they're no different to a fridge, except in reverse

It's typically called on to heat the house about 2 months of the year; a large amounts of the self build budget went on Kingspan and hours of time meticulously applying vapour control and breather membranes to the timber frame part of the structure for a house that has no draughts and can get away with such a comparatively small heat source despite being a conversion and hence not having total flexibility in terms of orientation and glazing for max solar gain

We did look at ground source, and have the space for a lateral one, but at the time the sums were eye watering and the grant didn't pay it all.

That all sounds perfect and a great system for you but the vast majority of uk homes are old stock and nothing like your spec
EDIT - I wrote this as your were writing the same thing

 

[robinbanks]

The sad thing is it cost me around £700 per square metre to build my near-passivhaus spec conversion so I know it's possible to build good quality housing at low cost, there is just little incentive to make it happen because people don't demand a good EPC when they purchase, they demand things like irrelevant aesthetic considerations instead

There was a lot of noise earlier in the thread about "if the government has to force it it's not in your interests" but I don't agree; regulation is gradually improving the quality of the housing stock, insisting on better insulation and draught detailing incrementally. I think they do it so as not to shock an industry that has classically got away with doing a shoddy job; new houses are better insulated and less draughty than they have ever been. It would be nice for the govt to start insisting a proportion of new houses be built to recycle the heat from their occupants activity and do away with heating systems entirely

 

[carmanmemoranda]

Got any options or useful ideas to add to the conversation or is that it then. If that is all you have got then dont bother posting otherwise your posts are just trolling

Well if you think governments provide anything free without it costing the taxpayer, its not me that's trolling.

I've got the tinfoil now.

 

[carmanmemoranda]

It doesn't make sense and will no work and the gov knows that, they juts like to be seen to be "doing" So full price including the necessary rad and pipe work around 12k -- to save £100 per year and that is by using the heating at times that you do not need it - its nonsense.

You don't understand heat pump systems do you

 

[ajohn]

But this country certainly dose change fast, we are +20 degrees thereabouts in the space of 5 days.

Doesn't really matter. The Swedish idea I mentioned just limits max power that is available. It can regulate just like an ordinary system can.

Underfloor can be similar.

I've been around in these houses with external temperaturs ranging from ~-10 to -25C or so. The industrial building as well which had very even heating.

 

[yorksbuilder]

Genuine question. If there was a cold period with temperature at -10 for a week (it happened in 2011/12), how would the ashp system fare?