Hinkley Point C - C stands for CON

[wv62]

Please give me a time of day, today, when you think there would be no tidal movement in or out around the coast of GB.

Obviously there is tidal movement around the coast constantly BUT there will be slack times at barrages where that barrage will NOT be able to provide base load. There would have to be many barrages spread around the coast to be able to cope. For a constant base load the best way is a nuke!

 

[JohnD]

Please give me a time of day, today, when you think there would be no tidal movement in or out around the coast of GB.

what a shame nobody will attempt to prove that, at any time of day or night, there is no tidal power available.

So we can ignore Wob's false claim that "Tidal is also intermittent,"

 

[wv62]

what a shame nobody will attempt to prove that, at any time of day or night, there is no tidal power available.

So we can ignore Wob's false claim that "Tidal is also intermittent,"

I'll just repeat what I posted in the post above yours!

Obviously there is tidal movement around the coast constantly BUT there will be slack times at barrages where that barrage will NOT be able to provide base load.

 

[wobs]

what a shame nobody will attempt to prove that, at any time of day or night, there is no tidal power available.

So we can ignore Wob's false claim that "Tidal is also intermittent,"

WV62 already covered this, but I'll expand on it.
Here is a tide chart for my area:
http://www.visitmyharbour.com/tides/119/uk-tables/hull-albertdock-tide-tables

I use this table at work for other purposes, but they have tried to use tidal power on the Humber, and it was abandoned (as I said earlier).

You'll notice the variations in tidal ranges, so a barrage would vary in how much it can supply. Then there is the issue of slack tides (note the times listed).

You think that the fact that other locations can compensate for this, as they would be having a tidal run at other times, but that assumes a gross over capacity for an energy source that is already expensive, and ignores the point that I made that locations are limited, as tidal ranges vary, and they have to be close to demand to make them viable.

Also, you could have a good tidal range, and good estuary depth etc, but if the river is used by river traffic and there is not room for both, it again becomes unviable.

Now, the isles of West Scotland has some great places for tidal power, as does Swansea, the Seven, and a few other estuaries, but most don't. In fact there are only about 20 decent locations in the world for a barrage scheme.

 

[JohnD]

go on then, name a time.

 

[wobs]

go on then, name a time.

I've given you a tide table. Don't make me go round there and click on the link for you.

At least try to understand what we a saying.

 

[wobs]

Meanwhile, here's what happened to a pilot scheme on the Humber:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-humber-25715337
"However, in February 2013 Neptune Renewable Energy said there was "no commercial value in pursuing the project any further" and the company went into liquidation."

Also, for a tidal scheme to work on such an estuary, you would need to be able to move it around, as the silt in the Humber moved around with the changing tidal conditions. This idea that it would be free after installation is not always the case.

The most optimistic projections puts the capacity at 20% of the grid. But this happens to be the same as the amount for wind and solar, suggesting that they are basing it on the fact that its intermittent. The 20% limit is a common limit as the intermittency means you are limited on how much you can compensate with conventional sources economically and technically.

 

[wobs]

I've just noticed its a spring tide today. I should get out there later.

 

[Corgigrouch GTi]

Oops

 

[Corgigrouch GTi]

go on then, name a time.

Medication time for JohnD?

 

[SirGalahad]

I'm quoting yours, but Kankerot suffers from the same misunderstanding of the issues.

Nuclear power provides a different type of supply than most renewables. This includes tidal, solar or wind. We have had a demand for 63GW in the past, and with economic growth, that will only increase (no matter how much we push for efficiencies).

The intermittency of renewables means that they cannot supply baseload supply effectively. They are not designed for it, and there is no reason to pretend that they are. Tidal is also intermittent, albeit predictable, but with few viable locations (see also wave). Solar and wind are great for the type of supply they provide, as long as we have a gas supply as well, and given we currently burn more gas than anything else (over 17GW earlier today), we need to cut this use ASAP, and move nuclear for baseload supply, so gas can be used to address the variable demands.

Nuclear power is the only option the UK has for a low carbon baseload supply. We have no large scale hydro, we have no storage on that scale that is viable (and if we did it would just addd to the cost of any intermittent supply), and we need to cut carbon emissions.

The opposition to nuclear power is based upon fear. And nothing else.

Wobs I think you have misunderstood me.

I don't like the way Hinkley has been financed - its down right bordering on corruption. I understood the issues regarding renewables. I am not against Nuclear power but I am sceptical about vanity projects and huge lumbering projects that by the time they are commissioned any benefit is lost or is negligible.

 

[wobs]

Further info....

Here is a chart showing how much output can vary over not just a single tidal range, but between different tides:

This is an intermittent supply, and hoping other sites would compensate for this is a misunderstanding of the issue.

Below is a link, with a chart showing the real time power output from 6 locations such as Norfolk, Pembroke, Anglesey (fig.6) ...

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/279783474_Tidal_energy_leasing_and_tidal_phasing

You'll note that all six drop in output in a similar period. Coupled with a neap tide, this would seriously cut output, and require huge back up.

 

[JohnD]

I've given you a tide table.

I've got plenty of tide tables.

What I want you to do is to try to prove that there is any time, of the day or night, when Britain has no potential tidal energy.

Because I know as well as you do that the tide times vary all round the coast, with a maximum difference exceeding six hours.

It won't help to say that it would be awkward, or expensive, to put a barrage in place A. Consider what we are going to pay for one of our next nukes, where we have promised to pay double the market price for its electricity (DOUBLE!)

It won't help to say it will spoil somebody's view. Consider we had a hundred years of spoil heaps and chimneys.

It won't help to say it might require state investment or ownership. We are quite happy to have our utilities and infrastructure owned by the state, as long as it is the French state, the Chinese state, the Dutch or German state.

 

[SirGalahad]

It won't help to say it might require state investment or ownership. We are quite happy to have our utilities and infrastructure owned by the state, as long as it is the French state, the Chinese state, the Dutch or German state.

Cognitive dissonance of DM Tory supporters in the same breath they decry foreigners they are happy to sell public utilities to foreign governments.

 

[wobs]

I've got plenty of tide tables.

What I want you to do is to try to prove that there is any time, of the day or night, when Britain has no potential tidal energy.

Because I know as well as you do that the tide times vary all round the coast, with a maximum difference exceeding six hours.

It won't help to say that it would be awkward, or expensive, to put a barrage in place A. Consider what we are going to pay for one of our next nukes, where we have promised to pay double the market price for its electricity (DOUBLE!)

It won't help to say it will spoil somebody's view. Consider we had a hundred years of spoil heaps and chimneys.

It won't help to say it might require state investment or ownership. We are quite happy to have our utilities and infrastructure owned by the state, as long as it is the French state, the Chinese state, the Dutch or German state.

See my previous post. Tidal power output from various locations in real time, shows you are wrong.

It is not comparable to nuclear power as it is intermittent, and suffers from not getting cheaper the more you build.