Insurance fraud?

[morqthana]

Interesting though though. All these folk who are currently telling us that hydrogen is "the answer".... How many of them do you think actually believe it, and how many do you think are just saying it because it's a way of sitting in their ICEs and kicking the can down the road whilst appearing to still give a rat's ass about the planet?

I wonder how many of them think that "hydrogen cars" are ICEVs burning hydrogen, rather than electric cars using hydrogen fuel cells to make electricity rather than having batteries? So what they are pushing are EVs. Just even more expensive ones to buy and run than the battery ones they despise, and with even greater recharging issues, and worse environmental issues.

And I wonder how many will want to read this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_vehicle#Criticism_of_hydrogen_cars

 

[morqthana]

Which facts do you find funny, Johnny?

The fact that burning gas produces less CO2 than burning petrol or diesel, per amount of energy released?

Or the fact that gas-fired power stations are more efficient than car ICEs?

 

[Harry Bloomfield]

Or the fact that gas-fired power stations are more efficient than car ICEs?

Are you sure about that - generator warm up losses, generator inefficiencies, transformation losses, transmission losses, more transformation losses, charging losses, losses in the batteries themselves. You obviously know little about the subject!

A modern diesel engine operates at an efficiency of between 50 to 60%, judging by the waste heat and MPG I can get from mine, I would suggest mine is a touch higher.

A modern power station runs at a similar 55 - 60% efficiency, then there are all the other losses to add in..

 

[Brigadier]

A modern diesel engine operates at an efficiency of between 50 to 60%,

Not in use it won't.
Closer to half your figures.

judging by the waste heat and MPG I can get from mine, I would suggest mine is a touch higher.

And you'd be wrong.

 

[Harry Bloomfield]

Not in use it won't.
Closer to half your figures.

Think again, corporal!

 

[Brigadier]

Think again, corporal!

Do you think I didn't check, before replying?

Fuel use - how low can you go?

The diesel engine has become a highly efficient power source – but how much further can it be developed. In this article Dr. Staffan Lundgren discusses whether the humble engine has a...

www.volvoce.com

What is the maximum efficiency an engine can achieve?​

The diesel engine has a theoretical system efficiency of between 55-60%. For reference, the best power stations operate at 50-55% efficiency, and fuel cells are also around 50%+ efficient – so diesel engines can be incredible efficient. This, added to the fact that engines working with electrification will often have a lower power demand, will mean fuel use is set to decline in the future.



"Theoretical".

A car engine in use won't operate anywhere near "theoretical" efficiency.

 

[Harry Bloomfield]

Do you think I didn't check, before replying?

Yes!

 

[Brigadier]

Yes!

You're racking up the "wrongs" then: you're definitely on a roll today

 

[Avocet]

Not in use it won't.
Closer to half your figures.



And you'd be wrong.

40% at peak efficiency on a very good day, with a very good engine, maybe. The thing is, ICEs spend very little of their operating envelope at peak efficiency. Most of the time, it's much, much worse.

 

[johnny2007]

Which facts do you find funny, Johnny?

The fact that burning gas produces less CO2 than burning petrol or diesel, per amount of energy released?

Or the fact that gas-fired power stations are more efficient than car ICEs?

No, the fact that you have tunnel vision.
Exhaust pipe measurements and all of that which is totally wrong in the real world.
It makes me want to say "look at the bigger picture", but I know you won't.
Religious extremists just believe in their God regardless of anything else.

 

[morqthana]

No, the fact that you have tunnel vision.

Tunnel vision?

Surely you don't actually disagree with the fact that burning gas produces less CO2 than burning petrol or diesel, per amount of energy released, do you?

Surely you don't actually disagree with the fact that gas-fired power stations are more efficient than car ICEs, do you?

Exhaust pipe measurements and all of that which is totally wrong in the real world.
It makes me want to say "look at the bigger picture", but I know you won't.

That makes me want to ask you to explain what's wrong with using exhaust pipe measurements to measure what's in the exhaust coming out of the pipes, but I know you won't.

Religious extremists just believe in their God regardless of anything else.

So what's your God, Johnny?

The God of fact-denying, evidence-ignoring, falsehoods?

 

[Harry Bloomfield]

Surely you don't actually disagree with the fact that burning gas produces less CO2 than burning petrol or diesel, per amount of energy released, do you?

Burning gas, is more efficient, but then there are numerous transmission losses etc., which are inescapable, which brings the efficiency way down below ICE as a method of propulsion. If your aim is to burn gas efficiently, burn it in the ICE vehicle.

Surely you don't actually disagree with the fact that gas-fired power stations are more efficient than car ICEs, do you?

 

[johnny2007]

Surely you don't actually disagree with the fact that burning gas produces less CO2 than burning petrol or diesel, per amount of energy released, do you?

Surely you don't actually disagree with the fact that gas-fired power stations are more efficient than car ICEs, do you?

Not at all, I agree 100%

That makes me want to ask you to explain what's wrong with using exhaust pipe measurements to measure what's in the exhaust coming out of the pipes, but I know you won't.

I try to break it down for your 3 neurons.
An EV will have zero emissions at exhaust, because there's no exhaust.
This does not mean that the vehicle does not pollute.
You need to consider the lifecycle of the vehicle from when material is mined to when the vehicle is dismantled and recycled.
The planet is not just the 2 cubic metre around you, it's a living organism and if someone is building your zero emission car on the other side of it, there will be consequences even where you are.
I know, I know, your brain if fused by now, but try to read this again one sentence at the time and lay down.

So what's your God, Johnny?

The God of fact-denying, evidence-ignoring, falsehoods?

If that was true we would profess the same religion...

 

[Avocet]

Burning gas, is more efficient, but then there are numerous transmission losses etc., which are inescapable, which brings the efficiency way down below ICE as a method of propulsion. If your aim is to burn gas efficiently, burn it in the ICE vehicle.

Grid transmission losses are actually very small.

Let's put some real numbers on it...

Gas-generated electricity in the UK produces 183 grammes of CO2 per kWh.

New 2024 UK Grid Emissions Factors - ITPEnergised

The latest UK Government Emissions factors 2024 can be used for accurately reporting the carbon impact of business energy use.

www.itpenergised.com

My car has averaged 3.4 miles to the kWh since I've had it.

So, I get 3.4 miles for 183 grammes of CO2.

As CO2 emissions are usually quoted in grammes per km, I'll multiply the mileage by 1.6 to convert to km, which gives me 183 grammes for 5.44km, or 33.6 grammes per km of CO2, assuming 100% of our electricity is generated using gas.

Let me just leave that there for a moment.. 34 g/km...

Now, the process of getting that electricity into the car isn't 100% efficient if I charge from home on AC. The charger and the car are about 94% efficient, so I'm going to factor that in, because it's only fair, so that's 35.8 g/km.

And then, of course, as Harry points out, we have the grid transmission losses to consider as well. Those are in the link above - the grid power factor. That's another 18 grammes per kWh, bringing my car's emissions to 39.1g/km.

So, just to recap. These are not some pie-in-the-sky WLTP "official" emissions drive cycle figures, these are actual real figures from real life day-to-day use by someone with quite a heavy right foot, driving a three-and-a-half hundred horsepower, 2 ton EV, using the absolute worst case figure of 100% gas-generated electricity... OK? 39.1g/km...

So, Johnny, Harry, anyone else who fancies the challenge...

what sort of ICE car can I get that gives 40g/km in real life use? Any takers?

Oh, and since you're so hung-up on grid transmission losses in getting the electricity from the power station to my house, you will, of course, play fair and also add-in the CO2 emissions for getting the petrol or diesel from the refinery to the petrol station and up into your tank, won't you? (I'll let you off the CO2 emissions for actually refining the stuff before you even get to the point of burning it, shall I)?

 

[Avocet]

Not at all, I agree 100%

I try to break it down for your 3 neurons.
An EV will have zero emissions at exhaust, because there's no exhaust.
This does not mean that the vehicle does not pollute.
You need to consider the lifecycle of the vehicle from when material is mined to when the vehicle is dismantled and recycled.
The planet is not just the 2 cubic metre around you, it's a living organism and if someone is building your zero emission car on the other side of it, there will be consequences even where you are.
I know, I know, your brain if fused by now, but try to read this again one sentence at the time and lay down.

If that was true we would profess the same religion...

Gosh! Yes! Now you come to mention it, there ARE other emissions associated with building a car! And you know what? You're absolutely right - they're higher for an EV than a like-for-like ICE... Now, obviously, that's a lot to ask of my three neurons, but hey! Look what I found!

https://www.volvocars.com/images/v/-/media/market-assets/intl/applications/dotcom/pdf/c40/volvo-c40-recharge-lca-report.pdf

Would you believe it? Someone's already gone and done all that and taken it into account! It's almost like some clever folk actually thought about all this before deciding that EVs were a good thing to do for the planet - even when you factor-in the additional manufacturing emissions! Who knew, eh?!

(Spoiler alert! Even when you take into account the extra manufacturing emissions - all the mining, all the dismantling, all the recycling... turns out that EVs are still a better bet than ICEs)!