Is plumbing still a trade?

[Whitespirit66]

There is an old saying that goes 'Everyone else's job is always easy, until you have to do it yourself'.

Plumbing isn't rocket science, but there is far more to it than connecting up a few bits of plastic pipe.

 

[Sylvan Tieger]

A friend of mine has replumbed his own house using plastic pipe and push fit connections, he is not a plumber by trade but he says with all the modern plastic fittings available to-day domestic plumbing is easy, he says there is no need to use a blow torch or solder.

He decided to have a go himself after getting outrageous quotes from local tradesmen, he got most of his information on plumbing from a diy book from the local library, if it is that easy why do plumbers charge so much.

I blame the low lives, non skilled who call themselves "plumbers" but have less skill then a handyman with a kindergarten education.

What I have been saying for over 25 years SCREW PLASTIC and push on connectors as most inept contractors that go with plastic say "its fast" nothing about quality

I am called a dinosaur as I still braze / solder my copper joints and still use strictly cast iron for drainage and vent and my roof drains are caulked using lead and oakum and 3 ft x 3ft x 4 PSF (pounds per square foot) sheet lead.


How can a person call themselves a "professional" or craftsman knowing that anyone can glue a piece of pipe together or push two pieces of copper /plastic into a fitting?

Tradesmen wanted fast and they wanted easy they got exactly what they wanted. A non skilled application that goes in fast cheap and requires no skill to install.

The problem with our societies, England / USA is the new wave of non skilled labor (labour) willing to work really cheap but because the skill level is lacking many unscrupulous contractors took the easy way out and used materials a child who is 5 or 6 years old can install so training is not even an issue any more

Once someone sees how easy "plumbing" is then why hire someone when anyone can do it unless the contractors decide to work cheaper then the next bloke next to him so the price wars begin who can work the most hours for the less amount of money.

Regarding your so called "outrageous" Quotes Thank GOD YOUR THERE and I AM HERE as I pride myself as being one of the most expensive Master plumbers in my area.

I firmly believe with my education someone has to compensate me for my professional skill level and my on going training.

http://www.masterplumbers.com/plumbviews/authors/sylvan-tieger/qualifications.asp

My education cost me dearly and I will not lower my standards just to be in a rat race who can get in and get out the fastest and move on to the next victim.

The trades wanted fast and easy and they got it .

6 week plumbers no training except monkey see monkey do and no skills what so ever BUT it sure helps some employers keep the cost of doing business really low as they no longer have a need for skilled craftmen

 

[Sylvan Tieger]

There is an old saying that goes 'Everyone else's job is always easy, until you have to do it yourself'.

Plumbing isn't rocket science, but there is far more to it than connecting up a few bits of plastic pipe.

Possibly in England the skill levels are not there for plumbing as other places in the civilized world like NYC holds the LMP totally responsible for the design and integrity of the plumbing /gas installations.

An engineer many design a gas /plumbing system but it is the responsibility of the master plumber to not only install all the piping but to make sure it is properly sized as the plumber is the one held accountable.

A "plumber" had better know how to weld, work on medical gases be able to size install and inspect gas piping know how to use interpolation to convert fixture units into sqare feet or visa versa.

http://www.masterplumbers.com/plumbviews/authors/sylvan-tieger/articles.asp

A lot has changed since 1999 when I wrote most of these articles ,but I still use time tested products such a lead flashing on the cast iron roof drains and copper for flashing parapets and if given the right price lead coated copper. Lead burning is still an art form mostly used today by highly skilled roofers

Perfection is not an accident

 

[mark vincent]

Most people are not interested in the skill required as most of the pipes will be hidden anyway. What people want is to turn on their water tap and see water coming out, whether the water comes through a plastic pipe or a copper pipe with nice soldered joints isn't really an issue along as it does what it says on the tin. People used to have the pictures painted by highly skilled artists nowadays people use a camera, are you saying that the invention of the camera was a bad thing.

 

[Sylvan Tieger]

are you saying that the invention of the camera was a bad thing.

Not at all but think of it this way suppose most installers only know how to glue two fittings together and then one day they are called upon to work on a building built in 1925 and install a cast iron drain with sheet lead.

Considering lead wiping is still an art form and how the few reminaing can demand higher prices because of this skill just proves being overly qualified is a lot better then just getting by.

Installing piping even simple water supply lines one should know at least how to calculate velocity ( by knowing just the pressure) to maintain a quiet long lasting system.

Today with tract houses it is monkey see monkey do installation no brains required thus the pay scale reflects the lack of skills required today in many new construction sites

 

[seco services]

Sylvan Tieger
why are you bothering wasting your time.

 

[mark vincent]

are you saying that the invention of the camera was a bad thing.

Not at all but think of it this way suppose most installers only know how to glue two fittings together and then one day they are called upon to work on a building built in 1925 and install a cast iron drain with sheet lead.

Considering lead wiping is still an art form and how the few reminaing can demand higher prices because of this skill just proves being overly qualified is a lot better then just getting by.

Installing piping even simple water supply lines one should know at least how to calculate velocity ( by knowing just the pressure) to maintain a quiet long lasting system.

Today with tract houses it is monkey see monkey do installation no brains required thus the pay scale reflects the lack of skills required today in many new construction sites

I accept your point, plumbing was at one time a highly skilled craft, but things have moved on,.

 

[Mark Br]

I accept your point, plumbing was at one time a highly skilled craft, but things have moved on

I look forward to you or your friends answers when people request advice on issues.

 

[Sylvan Tieger]

I accept your point, plumbing was at one time a highly skilled craft, but things have moved on

I look forward to you or your friends answers when people request advice on issues.

Thank you, I really would appreciate receiving E mails from folks asking advice as an educated consumer is normally my best accounts.

Once you take the time to explain why people should hire licensed gas fitters or licensed master plumbers /drainers and they understand that as professionals we do carry insurance for their protection and a license just means we took the time to try to learn our trades to the best of our ability it raises the bar for all of us.


Today I was working on replacing a 4" roof drain that over the past 50+ years was totally neglected and the original quarry tile was covered with several layers of bituminous materials and another layer of quarry tile and then gravel and a drain was installed on top of a 4" galvanized leader line.

I lowered the new cast iron drain 91/2" used the 4 PSF sheet lead and charged $2,100 just for the labor (labour) and because another contractors was on the job he saw my work and asked me to give him a price on another job he is working on to install 8 drains.

I always ask the folks asking how to advice "Would you get on an airplane that offered really cheap rates because the pilots learned strictly on the job and had no formal training?" Then the same theory allies to plumbing and gas fitting knowing why is just as important as knowing how

Ever want to join my world wide list feel free to contact me we have gas fitters from Oz and drainers and plumbers

 

[Softus]

he says there is no need to use a blow torch or solder.

He'd have trouble repairing other installations without such things.

He decided to have a go himself after getting outrageous quotes

Is this an example of being outrageous?

why do plumbers charge so much.

Does your "friend" pay for any of the following:

. Tools
. Stock
. A vehicle to carry around tools and stock
. Training
. Insurance
. Professional fees
. Time spent doing paperwork
. Warranty

 

[Mark Br]

Sylvan

The reply was really directed towards the OP. i.e. That I believe plumbing is still a skilled trade, but if he knows soooo much then why not reply to posts asking for advice, if he can!

Sorry, English sarcasm

 

[Sylvan Tieger]

Sorry, English sarcasm[/quote]

Never be sorry for sarcasm as I met some really great people from Australia who I was very sarcastic to and when they came to the USA we had an amazing time going out to dinner.

One gentleman name Gerry signed me up as an honorary member of the Queensland master plumbers association.

Without sarcastic humour (humor) the world would be a very boring place BESISES it take a person with great intellect to understand sarcasm

 

[Shytalkz]

BESISES it take a person with great intellect to understand sarcasm

No, really?

 

[Softus]

He's not The Messiah; he's a very naughty boy.

 

[mark vincent]

I always thought sarcasm was supposed to be the lowest form wit, in this country anyway, i hope that doesn't sound sarcastic.