Jack Straw

[johnny_t]

Thought I'd get in first on this and be the first to say - What An Idiot.

As if there aren't enough problems in this world without having to see him trying to score some cheap headlines off of an easy target and just winding up people needlessly.

What does it matter to him really if women choose to wear a veil. Does he tell women in low-cut tops to cover up as it stops him communicating one-to-one ? Does he tell women on perfume counters not to wear ridiculous make-up ? Does he tell fat women (if there are such a thing in Bolton) not to wear ridiculous tight vest tops that stop just above their belly button ?

No, No and No. just a cheap bit of Muslim-bashing because there was a danger that the Express wouldn't have a headline today.

 

[BOB.DOLE]

well said Jack if, one law for the hoodies and one for this creed, stincks.

 

[Slogger]

well i agree with jack straw as i have been discriminated against when wearing a helmet by being asked to take it off and these women dont ??

when in rome eh

 

[johnny_t]

So what you're both saying is because you feel you've been done wrong, then others should be done wrong to too. Too wrongs making a right and all that ??

 

[hermes]

not sure what I think about this, but just to play Devil's advocate, how would you feel if people put masks over their faces before they came to see you.

 

[johnny_t]

I see your point, but I suppose in that case it comes down to how you feel about it.

If someone turned up at my door wearing a Scream mask, I might find it a bit threatening. If someone came to a business meeting with a cut-out Burt Reynolds mask on, I might think it a bit odd. In my experience though, I don't think people generally find Muslim women in veils as either of those things, so each case should be judged on its own merits.

If there were a spate of armed robberies on garages by baddies disguising themselves as Muslim women, that would be when this sort of thing needs discussing, in my opinion.

 

[WoodYouLike]

I am in two minds about this.
First of all, as I understand it, his remark came after a veiled lady said she was glad to finally meet him face-to-face. Which is indeed a bit hard to do when you can only see, or not at all, her face. I compare it with someone coming in a room or shop and not removing his/her sunglasses, I hate that, you can't really 'communicate' with such a person, can you?
On the other hand, traditions are traditions, hence my 'two minds'

 

[ban-all-sheds]

What does it matter to him really if women choose to wear a veil.

I haven't got time right now to go back and re-read what he said (assuming he is being accurately reported, of course, which is never a certainty) but from memory he was talking about what he believes to be general concerns, not his personal attitude.

Does he tell women in low-cut tops to cover up as it stops him communicating one-to-one ?

He doesn't, but some people do.

No, No and No. just a cheap bit of Muslim-bashing because there was a danger that the Express wouldn't have a headline today.

It's not Muslim bashing, and by saying that you are bolstering the views of ignorant Muslims and fanning the flames of intolerance.

The wearing of burqas, chadors, niqabs, headscarves etc is a cultural thing, not really religious, i.e. the Quran does not make any specific requirements beyond "dressing modestly". AFAIK, beyond that, everything is interpretation and custom, often imposed by men as part of their oppression of women.

In different places there are different levels of pressure, and laws, to make women conform, and different forms of dress - the burqa for instance is concentrated in Afghanistan and Pakistan.

Many of the Muslims in this country come from, or their families originate from, Pakistan, which is a misogynistic society, and why a number of them have those misogynistic and oppressive views. Those views need to be challenged, and changed, but it must always be stressed that the views are cultural and historical, not religious, or all you will do is to increase the divisions between all Muslims and non-Muslims.

 

[johnny_t]

I can see, on reflection, that my phrase 'Muslim-bashing' was probably the wrong one, and my point is more accurately that, given his position and that he can not fail to know will happen when he opens a debate like this, why is he choosing to feed the endless treadmill of another day, another story about cultural differences being centre-stage.

Most people are completely unaffected by any negative interaction between the Muslim and non-Muslim communities, but the news would imply that it is the most pressing topic in the country today. For most people it is only a talking point because the press have made it so.

Jack Straw must have deliberately chosen to keep the whole merry-go-round turning and I am interested to know why ?

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Maybe he wants to be Labour Home Secretary again, and has spotted that the way to do that is to be more of an insensitive thug than your predecessor?

 

[baldy01]

From what I've seen there's an awful lot of interpolation and putting words into mouths going on.

He has every right to ask Muslim women to remove the veil when talking to him, just as they have every right to refuse. If both sides are grown ups then no-one would see it as anything other than a momentary negotiation of terms. Over and done with.

Were he not an MP and therefore payed to represent his constituency, of which burkha'd women are a part, I would futher extend his rights to that of refusing to speak to them if they are not prepared to show their faces. This I find rude, as would most westerners and our cultural traditions are just as valid as muslim ones. You don't have to show your face, I don't have to talk to you if you won't show me your face, its a free country and neither choice is better or worse than the other.

The press have blown this up out of all proportion, and then the MUslims followed suit.

Everyone needs to grow up.

What he was saying was that if you choose to act in a way that makes you appear different and separate, you can't blame people for treating you as different and separate.

 

[noodlz]

My initial reaction was much the same as Johnny_t's first post, but having read a bit more about what Jack Straw is reported to have said and done, I do think he might have been misjudged. Its difficult at the best of times to know if politicians say and do things out of sincerity and what they believe to be right or for political manouevouring, but there is an issue here.

The ironic thing is that if you talk to many Pakistanis, as I have done, most do not dress this way in Pakistan apart from in the more tribal areas or the very poor. Furthermore, the type of dress that is often adopted over here is often more Arab in origin. Maybe they've become more conservative in this country as a reaction(an overeaction in my opinion) to western dress?

I do agree with BAS's points here and it is very important to distinguish between cultural and religious differences. Unfortunately, the narrow-minded extremists, both anti-muslim and muslim do not tend to discuss things rationally. It's difficult to get through to them.

Instead of trying to bridge the divide, there are also people who should know better, such as media editors on both sides, who widen the chasm with sensational, irresponsible indoctrination. They know full well they use spin and I don't believe they are totally ignorant of the long-term consequences the drip-drip of negative portrayals, however much they might try to kid themselves otherwise.

Getting back to what Jack Straw actually said and did, I don't think its that reprehensible, but sadly maybe he should have known certain quarters would twist it. Is that his fault though or are the people who manipulate more to blame?

 

[ban-all-sheds]

down boy cmon bas don't make my life hard work

I'm obviously missing something here - what's wrong with what I wrote?

MOD 2

clue
edit a warning out again and the full post will be deleted

 

[pickles]

It's old news now.

Todays top story is the Muslim taxi driver who refused to take a blind woman in his cab because he considered her guide dog "unclean"

 

[Moz]

whats Bolton got to do with it ,... idiot, Straws a Blackburn Mp ,lol..lol lol

Ive got a lovely kissing cousin Jane from Bolton .. smashing people ..