lights / bonding in bathroom

[Spark123]

for example, a screwdriver to remove it , then you dont need to bond it (unless the bath is metal).

You don't need to bond a metal bath as it is not considered an extraneous conductive part (unless it is connected to metallic building support beams).
An extraneous conductive part is "A conductive part liable to introduce a potential, generally earth potential, (and not forming part of the electrical installation)."

 

[sijaysee]

spark, surely metal baths and metal shower trays need to have supplementary bonding!! reg 601-04-01

 

[Bazdaa]

spark, surely metal baths and metal shower trays need to have supplementary bonding!! reg 601-04-01

Hold your tongue.

How dare you challenge the Sparks Chief!

 

[Qedelec]

Sorry to cotradict you spark123 but:

Items requiring supplementary equipotential bonding. Regulation 601-04-01 requires the protective conductor terminals of each circuit supplying Class I and Class II electrical equipment in zones 1, 2 or 3, and extraneous-conductive-parts in these zones to be connected together by local supplementary equipotential bonding conductors complying with Regulation Group 547-03. This is to prevent the occurrence of voltages between any such parts of such magnitude as could cause danger of electric shock.
Examples of parts that may commonly be found in a bathroom that may come within the definition of an extraneous-conductive-part include:
• metallic pipes supplying services, and metallic waste pipes (e.g. water, gas),
• metallic central heating pipes and air conditioning systems,
• accessible metallic structural parts of the building; (metallic door architraves, window frames and similar parts are not considered to be extraneous-conductive-parts unless they are connected to metallic structural parts of the building),
• metallic baths and metallic shower basins.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

See my highlighting below

Sorry to cotradict you spark123 but:

Items requiring supplementary equipotential bonding. Regulation 601-04-01 requires the protective conductor terminals of each circuit supplying Class I and Class II electrical equipment in zones 1, 2 or 3, and extraneous-conductive-parts in these zones to be connected together by local supplementary equipotential bonding conductors complying with Regulation Group 547-03. This is to prevent the occurrence of voltages between any such parts of such magnitude as could cause danger of electric shock.
Examples of parts that may commonly be found in a bathroom that may come within the definition of an extraneous-conductive-part include:
• metallic pipes supplying services, and metallic waste pipes (e.g. water, gas),
• metallic central heating pipes and air conditioning systems,
• accessible metallic structural parts of the building; (metallic door architraves, window frames and similar parts are not considered to be extraneous-conductive-parts unless they are connected to metallic structural parts of the building),
• metallic baths and metallic shower basins.

So you bond metallic baths & shower basins if they are e-c-ps.

If not, not.

 

[sijaysee]

ban , can you give me examples of when metal baths would and would not be deemed as extraneous conductive parts.

 

[usuallyonscrewfix]

i think that the questions that i have asked here are quite valid

Not for a qualified professional to ask.

and there IS a lot of confusion over bonding etc

A qualified professional should not be confused.

espescially when the rules change as they do

The rules haven't changed for a long time.

for example i am told by certain people here that when i supplementary bond the bathroom , then it should be contained in that room.

Yes, it should - what's confusing about that?

yet reg 601-04-01 states "the supplementary equipotential bonding may be provided in close proximity to the location" .

Yes, it may be provided in close proximity to the location, as an alternative to being provided at the location - what's confusing about that?

not exactly what i was hearing from you pro's. not "must" or even "should" but "may". so do you see my point?

I assume you're referring to this?:

all bonding muct be done in close proximity to the bathroom.

I agree - it could have been clearer. I guess he meant "close proximity" to mean a perimeter beyond which you shouldn't go, i.e. "all bonding must be done in, or in close proximity to, the bathroom".

I take it from the quote that if i cross bond the basin taps and then take my 4mm from the light pull switch to the shower pull switch and then to any cold water pipe in the house then thats complying with that reg.is that correct?

No - because "any cold water pipe in the house" is not the same as "in close proximity to the location". Take your supplementary equipotential bonding conductor from the cold pipe to the hot pipe and then to the pipe supplying the shower (assuming all these are metal pipes, and fed by metal pipes), and then to the cpc at the light pull switch and then to the cpc at the shower pull switch. (Or whatever sequence of connections makes sense given the layout)

Whats the matter? Taking your frustration out on someone else. Youre' such a ****!

 

[sijaysee]

Qedelec, where did you get that quote from because i have just looked at reg 601-04-01 and if doesnt read the way you have written it. doesnt say anything about items that "MAY" come within the definition of extraneous,

 

[usuallyonscrewfix]

Qedelec is a proper qualified electrician, you should listen too his advice, he has many sensible posts.

 

[sijaysee]

i dont doubt that for a minute. its just that i dont see that quote in the 16th edition regs and cz it gave ban some more ammunition against me. i would have thought that you either have to bond a metal bath or not. i know the one that i fitted recently had a big label on it which said "this bath must be earthed"

 

[has]

I assume you are joining the T+E to the downlights flex with a JB?? Then just put the earth into a spare terminal.

If you are not doing it this way - YOU SHOULT BE, or atleast be using a rubbishy chock-box.

sorry to drag on this topic even longer but we have been advised to used the "rubbishy chock-box" by niceic inspector due to the supplied cord grip for the flex and stop using the small j/b's.
any thoughts.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

ban , can you give me examples of when metal baths would and would not be deemed as extraneous conductive parts.

If it can't introduce a potential, it's not an e-c-p.

Qedelec, where did you get that quote from because i have just looked at reg 601-04-01 and if doesnt read the way you have written it. doesnt say anything about items that "MAY" come within the definition of extraneous,

You're right, it doesn't - I didn't think about the fact that it wasn't a quote from the regs - just read the crucial "may". The passage could be from a NICEIC guide, or GN7?

i dont doubt that for a minute. its just that i dont see that quote in the 16th edition regs and cz it gave ban some more ammunition against me. i would have thought that you either have to bond a metal bath or not. i know the one that i fitted recently had a big label on it which said "this bath must be earthed"

Wasn't using it against you at all - it wasn't even you that posted it.

Anyway - let's think about whether a metallic bath has to be bonded or not.

This might take a while, but let me ask you a few questions.

Imagine an old-fashioned tin bath, that you fill with hot water from kettles and pans, and empty by baling it out with buckets until it's possible to pick it up and carry it outside.

Is it an extraneous-conductive-part?

If you were going to use it, in front of the fire in the back room, would you feel more or less safe if there were wires connecting it to the cpcs of the lighting and socket circuits, and why?

 

[securespark]

According to snags and solutions.....

A metallic bath or shower basin is classed as an extraneous-conductive-part, as are accessible metallic structural parts of a building.

However, in the same book, it is stated:

Most often, .....................metal baths will not be ecp's as defined, and where this is the case, will not need main or supp bonding.

ECP's must be connected to the MET by main equip. bond cond's where protection against IC is provided by EEBADS. REG 413-02-02.

ECP's in Z's 1 2 & 3 must be connected by local supp bonding to the terminal of the cpc of each circuit supplying class I or II equipment in these zones. (Reg 601-04-01 refers).

Given that this info is all taken from one publication intended to clear up confusion surrounding bonding, and is written by the NIC, I feel they have failed!!

Can you make sense of it?

BTW, I think bansatwatisatwat.

BTW, I am a qualified electrician of 17 years.

 

[Bazdaa]

Forget options of earthing a metal bath or not.

I'm someone who prefers to go for the safer option. Is is safe to assume that you should earth metal baths (regardless of whether you HAVE to or not).

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Is is safe to assume that you should earth metal baths (regardless of whether you HAVE to or not).

Should that be "It is", i.e. a statement, or "Is it", i.e. a question? I honestly can't tell, so I'll respond either way.

It is safe to assume that you should earth metal baths (regardless of whether you HAVE to or not).

Old fashioned tin bath in front of the fire. Would you connect cables from it to the cpcs of the circuits in the room?

Is it safe to assume that you should earth metal baths (regardless of whether you HAVE to or not)?

No.