London bombings how dreadful......

[jasy]

and you do fred everyone has an opinion. i argue the to*s on here in what i believe in. You are as bad as everyone else. dont listen to him because he says something that you dont believe is cr*p. think you should grow up mate

 

[Freddie]

and you do fred everyone has an opinion. i argue the to*s on here in what i believe in. You are as bad as everyone else. dont listen to him because he says something that you dont believe is cr*p. think you should grow up mate

I know everyone is entitled to have an opinion Jasy, and at the least i can be the worst argumentative bastard but my point on Damocles is he is and has been shown to be consistantly wrong, but he still chips in to wind people up.---wheres my gun.

 

[Damocles]

Wrong? about what? Europe is pretty much business as usual. Didn't you notice it has always juddered along in fits and starts? Regrettably, my own point of view re dangers from Iraq seems to have been correct.....though it is rather early to know exactly what happened in London. I don't mind politicians going off to war if they feel they have a mandate and a just cause. What I don't like is the version of facts they present being so badly wrong. Still, not everyone would agree with me, and others would have a similar point of view about the EU.

 

[Big_Spark]

I am amazed by some of the comments in this thread. Jasy wrote something which hits the nail on the head, as have a few others, yet some here seem to ignore the obvious and look for other meaning.

It is irrelevent whether Religion teaches hatred and murder or whether it teaches peace, if people commit atrocities in the name of that religion, and the religion fails to take action to prevent repeat events, then the hierachy of that religion bear some responsibility.

Of course the majority of Muslims do not agree with these zealots, but the fact that the Mullers in Iran and other influencial Muslim states fail to condemn such acts only feeds the idea in the West that Islam is evil and the idea in the Zealots that the West is Evil and that Islam condones their actions.

I believe, perhaps nievely, that if the most senior Mullers and Ayatolla's in Islam start to condemn the actions of the terorists, and publicly state they will not go to heaven if they commit such barbarism, then they will start to cause thos involved to question their beliefs, once this process starts it will have an impact on the recruitment, support and retention of personnel, financial and arms support to these groups.

Of course their will remain a core group of scum, but if they lack the strategic suppoprt they so rely upon, then their days will be numbered, and the very community that once supported them may then turn against them and see them for what they really are.

Life is never this simple, but I honestly think that if leaders in the West can swallow some pride and make concilatory moves to the Iranians etc to convinve them to take such actions, then it will be worth it, what good is pride to the dead? One life saved would make such efforts worthwhile.

 

[Freddie]

For the first time i agreed with what you said, but it isnt just the Mullers in Iran, there are a lot in other countries aswell.

As for Iran forget it because the new bloke hates the west with a passion and could be a kidnapper sorry hostage taker or whatever the name is

 

[kendor]

I am amazed by some of the comments in this thread. Jasy wrote something which hits the nail on the head, as have a few others, yet some here seem to ignore the obvious and look for other meaning.

It is irrelevent whether Religion teaches hatred and murder or whether it teaches peace, if people commit atrocities in the name of that religion, and the religion fails to take action to prevent repeat events, then the hierachy of that religion bear some responsibility.

Of course the majority of Muslims do not agree with these zealots, but the fact that the Mullers in Iran and other influencial Muslim states fail to condemn such acts only feeds the idea in the West that Islam is evil and the idea in the Zealots that the West is Evil and that Islam condones their actions.

I believe, perhaps nievely, that if the most senior Mullers and Ayatolla's in Islam start to condemn the actions of the terorists, and publicly state they will not go to heaven if they commit such barbarism, then they will start to cause thos involved to question their beliefs, once this process starts it will have an impact on the recruitment, support and retention of personnel, financial and arms support to these groups.

Of course their will remain a core group of scum, but if they lack the strategic suppoprt they so rely upon, then their days will be numbered, and the very community that once supported them may then turn against them and see them for what they really are.

Life is never this simple, but I honestly think that if leaders in the West can swallow some pride and make concilatory moves to the Iranians etc to convinve them to take such actions, then it will be worth it, what good is pride to the dead? One life saved would make such efforts worthwhile.

Again the point is missed anyone that condones violence has no right to call themselves religious. in so far as them doing something about it and i mean the true religious people not the ones that perpetrate to be so, what can they do that governments can't? All they can do is offer pray.
If you watched the news you'd have seen the religious leaders over here condemning the atrocities , whether that changes anything it's doubtful; as the ones that commit the atrocities are not influenced by religion but by their own agenda and merely try to drag religion into it.

 

[Big_Spark]

Kendor, it is you that has missed the point...the bombers do not give a stuff about the Muslim leaders here, they do listen to the Religious leaders in Iran, Syria and Palestine, especially the spiritual leaders of Hamas and other groups that operate in Israel and Lebanon.

Lets not forget that the Hamas Political and Religious leaders DID condemn the 9/11 attacks, getting them to condemn terrorism everywhere would be a major step forward and would have MASSIVE impact on those responsible. If we have to swallow some pride and make some consilitory moves to make it happen, it will be worth the effort. Lets not forget that the Palestinians have genuine grievances that need to be addressed, and so far the West has done little to make Israel comply with UN resolutions and to look for long term solutions to the problems, which remain the cause celeb for the recruitment of Terrrorists in the Middle East and give the leaders of these groups a focus to rally people around for support.

 

[kendor]

Kendor, it is you that has missed the point...the bombers do not give a stuff about the Muslim leaders here, they do listen to the Religious leaders in Iran, Syria and Palestine, especially the spiritual leaders of Hamas and other groups that operate in Israel and Lebanon.

Lets not forget that the Hamas Political and Religious leaders DID condemn the 9/11 attacks, getting them to condemn terrorism everywhere would be a major step forward and would have MASSIVE impact on those responsible. If we have to swallow some pride and make some consilitory moves to make it happen, it will be worth the effort. Lets not forget that the Palestinians have genuine grievances that need to be addressed, and so far the West has done little to make Israel comply with UN resolutions and to look for long term solutions to the problems, which remain the cause celeb for the recruitment of Terrrorists in the Middle East and give the leaders of these groups a focus to rally people around for support.

I'm sorry FWL but that is what i said, that the terrorists wouldn't listen to leaders as they have their own agenda.

 

[kendor]

let me put it another way, if the Archbishop of Canterbury suddenly started telling people to go and kill others would you condemn or blame Christianity?

 

[Freddie]

But Kendor i have seen programmes where these religious leaders ( dont have a clue what they are called ) tell there followers to go out and rid the infidel from the planet or to rid him from any country or to avenge the muslims.

I think one man in Bali or somewhere is actually under arrest for doing so and could be linked to the bomb there

 

[kendor]

But Kendor i have seen programmes where these religious leaders ( dont have a clue what they are called ) tell there followers to go out and rid the infidel from the planet or to rid him from any country or to avenge the muslims.

I think one man in Bali or somewhere is actually under arrest for doing so and could be linked to the bomb there

Yes but those so called religious leaders are really using religion for political gain.
Obviously these individuals have found a way to become leaders through pretending to be religious but speak to a normal Muslim and they will tell you that those people are not fit to be where they are.
A true man of the cloth would never interpret teachings to convey violence.

 

[Big_Spark]

Kendor, are you being obtuse or simply daft, the ambitions of the leaders is irrelevent, the fact is they ARE religious leaders and they use their religion and position to influence others to carry out acts of terrorism.

Other religious leaders who have influence are able to short circuit this process, bu they need to get something back for doing it. The Religious leader of Hamas, as I said earlier, condemned the 9/11 attacks, and if you actually look at the attacks that have occured recvently in the middle east, very few have come from Hamas except for a few that have specifically targeted Israeli Defence Force troops.

No-one has said or implied that religion, per se, is violent, but these people carry out their attacks in the name of their religion. You state they are not religious, your wrong, and oh so very wrong, it is this complete lack of understanding of their motives that is the reason many in the West are unable to understand the problem. I accept that by YOUR definition of religios following they are not religious, but by their definition you are not as you do not fight for your religion.

What these people do today is not much different from the crusades ordered by the Popes almost 1000 years ago, or the terrorism that we call the inquisition, none of these actions is in the spirit of any religion, but they were all done in the name of their respective religion, rightly or wrongly.

 

[kendor]

Kendor, are you being obtuse or simply daft, the ambitions of the leaders is irrelevent, the fact is they ARE religious leaders and they use their religion and position to influence others to carry out acts of terrorism.

Other religious leaders who have influence are able to short circuit this process, bu they need to get something back for doing it. The Religious leader of Hamas, as I said earlier, condemned the 9/11 attacks, and if you actually look at the attacks that have occured recvently in the middle east, very few have come from Hamas except for a few that have specifically targeted Israeli Defence Force troops.

No-one has said or implied that religion, per se, is violent, but these people carry out their attacks in the name of their religion. You state they are not religious, your wrong, and oh so very wrong, it is this complete lack of understanding of their motives that is the reason many in the West are unable to understand the problem. I accept that by YOUR definition of religios following they are not religious, but by their definition you are not as you do not fight for your religion.

What these people do today is not much different from the crusades ordered by the Popes almost 1000 years ago, or the terrorism that we call the inquisition, none of these actions is in the spirit of any religion, but they were all done in the name of their respective religion, rightly or wrongly.

No, no, no I disagree these are NOTreligious leaders , people , icons call them what you like, anyone that looks upon them as religious are misguided and those that use the name of a religion in their evil ways are not religious that's if we are talking about good religions and not satanism or something like it.

 

[kendor]

Again i ask, If the Archbishop of Canterbury suddenly started telling people to go and kill others would you condemn or blame Christianity?

 

[Freddie]

Kendor you are walking around the flower beds and tiptoeing through the Tulips------------you cant just scoff and dismiss facts that some religious leaders preach hate and tell its followers to kill and also what i was on about distaught or see other things in their holy preachings.

The facts are this is happening and it is only appearing to happen in one religion-- Islam.

I can only believe that Islam means nothing but good--BUT some people see something else there which incites or makes them go out and do what they do because they believe this is what Islam tells them to do

Who is right or wrtong i dont know but the fact is it happens and to dismiss it as " oh they are just misguided " is the equivelent of lighting the fuse of a bomb and stand there sticking your fingers in your ears so you cant hear it go off