Mega Flo vs Thermal store

I am surprised Lee! When were you last on the tools?

The pump shaft should be horizontal !

And as Dan has pointed out, the connection box should really be at the top or the sides but not underneath!

Dan, surely you dont let your employees fit the pump shaft other than horizontal ?

Tony
 
Sponsored Links
Ok guys you are going to have to spell this out for me as I'm not a plumber

1) The left hand pump.

What do you mean it needs to be horizontal? It does look horizontal to me ie pipes come in and out from the left and right of it. The right hand pump seems to be mounted vertically ie pipes seem to come in/out from the top and bottom.



2) The connection box

Which box are you talking about? I see two white boxes. One is sitting on the wooden platform and the other is inserted into the bottom of the thermal store itself.


And what effect do either or both of these errors actually have? Would either of them explain the issues I get?

Many thanks
 
Sponsored Links
Norcon, thanks but I'm still confused. Are you saying that the left hand pump should be flipped onto it's side so that it looks like the pump on the right hand side of the photo?

Thanks
 
av014.jpg


Strangely the link provided by Norcon shows that the shaft angle is OK. I have Grundfos literature that say otherwise.

The head of the pump needs rotating 90 or 180 degrees that the electrical control box of the pump is on the side or two. You only need to undo the 4 allen bolts and rotate the head - not the whole pump.
 
Ah, the old "lecky box where it will get water in it" installation. Guess what my parents BG installation failed on - tripping the RCD in the CU :rolleyes:

Back to the OP, the link you posted is to a different product altogether. Your link is to an open-vent hot water cylinder which would have no such problems as the whole cylinder is filled with potable hot water.

I believe you have one of these :
http://www.albionwaterheaters.com/mainsflow-thermal-store.html
and the sales brochure is here :
http://www.albionwaterheaters.com/pdfs/sales/mainsflow.pdf

You'll notice that there's diagrams of circuit arrangements there.


The first thing you need to do is determine if you have the right model, or rather figure out what model you have. You will see on page 6 a table of sizes and recommendation for different applications. I think you probably have one of the smaller ones, and from the table on page 7 you'll see that the larger models have larger flow rates.

Note below that, under "Flow rates" it says : "Flow rates must be controlled to reflect the performance of the unit, e.g. 160L units must be restricted to a maximum hot water flow of 30 litres per minute." I'm not aware of any simple product for doing that, other than just screwing down the stopcock a bit !

As I said earlier, this is the biggest drawback of passive thermal stores - the output is limited by the DHW coil design. So they share that limit on flow&temperature with combi boilers - but with a typically far higher capacity.

An alternative might be a thermostatic valve that controls flow rate if the water temperature droops. The only one I know of for doing that is the Combi Save but that is only 15mm and would in itself restrict flow.
 
Indus, why not get in a Plumber that knows about thermal stores(aka sludge buckets), the performance of your unit can be checked with the manufacturer, it may only require a little adjustment. Sometimes, with thermal stores or heatbanks, you can get a blending valve fighting with a thermostatic shower mixer, that results in a cold shower, another problem may be; the temperature the TS is sitting at, most should have 85C stored primary water.
Deffo worth getting a good man in.
 
Its also too much out of the horizontal plane for my liking!
laziness really as it would have took nothing to rotate the head 90 or 180 degrees then they could have got it sitting perfect

Matt

edit -oops I didnt realise there was a page two :oops:
its the pump that agile pointed out I'm on about
 
Norcon, thanks but I'm still confused. Are you saying that the left hand pump should be flipped onto it's side so that it looks like the pump on the right hand side of the photo?

Thanks

No indus, he means the pump needs the wiring box sitting anywhere but underneath as it is now and the pump head needs to be horizontal to minimise bearing wear
this can be achieved by undoing the four hex bolts that attach the pump head to the pump body then rotating the head, 180 degrees would probs be better in your case. the pump unions can then be loosened and the pump positioned so the head is horizontal or slightly higher than
you can do this yourself if you isolate the pump with its iso valves first but remember that the pump body will still be full of water when you loosen the head, you could minimise the water spill if you crack off the unions and position the pump vertical before loosening of the head but from the photo I think that vertical pipe to the right of the pump may be in the way
remember to bleed it again after you're done

Matt
 
Thanks Simon and Delta, I think we are getting somewhere now.

1)It is indeed an Albion mainsflow contractor, my link was incorrect

2) There is nothing stamped on it but I have just measured it's height and going by that ie nearly 2m it must be the biggest ie 250 litres

3) I do have a blending valve

4) My main problem is hot water out of one outlet is fine, as soon as I try two at the same time they run cold

It's not easy to find somebody who knows TS well. The guy who fitted it has emigrated. I've had three or four plumbers look at it for various reasons over the last couple of years

a) BG guys just couldn't figure it out.

b) The guy who changed my boiler 18 months ago did figure out how the whole thing works. He is a straight up guy but says that my system is not how he usually does things ie he does mainly mega flows.

c) The sub contractor who just moved the TS for the loft conversion company (as mentioned my loft conversion is under way)
He tried to tell me this is some kind of ancient system and I should consider ripping it out and installing a mega flo. I didn't get the feeling he was straight up.


I have guy b) coming around next week to have a look and tell me whether he thinks a Mega flo would solve my issue.

Any advice welcomed
 
Norcon, thanks but I'm still confused. Are you saying that the left hand pump should be flipped onto it's side so that it looks like the pump on the right hand side of the photo?

Thanks

No indus, he means the pump needs the wiring box sitting anywhere but underneath as it is now and the pump head needs to be horizontal to minimise bearing wear
this can be achieved by undoing the four hex bolts that attach the pump head to the pump body then rotating the head, 180 degrees would probs be better in your case. the pump unions can then be loosened and the pump positioned so the head is horizontal or slightly higher than
you can do this yourself if you isolate the pump with its iso valves first but remember that the pump body will still be full of water when you loosen the head
remember to bleed it again after you're done

Matt


Thanks Matt

I think I get it. The pump has one round black face with white writing on it, should this be pointing more directly at the ceiling?

Thanks
 
I think I get it. The pump has one round black face with white writing on it, should this be pointing more directly at the ceiling?

Thanks

No! that would be even worse
if you look at your pump from the photo angle and put a spirit on top of it the the left handside would need to come down to get it level
at the moment it looks as though this is prevented from doing so by the pumps wiring box (that should not be underneath the body anyway) hitting the pipe

Matt
 
4) My main problem is hot water out of one outlet is fine, as soon as I try two at the same time they run cold
I have a suggestion. If you can find a couple of pipe thermometers, stick one on the DHW pipe where it comes out of the cylinder, and one on the DHW pipe after the blending valve. They will need to have good contact, and ideally some thermal contact grease (or just a dab of ordinary grease at a pinch). Get someone to draw off water from one outlet and observe the thermometers, then get them to turn on a second outlet and see what happens. It will take some time to settle, so it might be best if you can combine this with normal DHW usage (such as running a bath) to reduce waste.

If you can't get hold of thermometers, then you could just try it by feel - but that's very subjective, and the pipes shoudl be too hot to touch anyway (at least the one coming out of the store should be).

What I'm angling at is this - does your hot water go cold because the store can't heat it properly (the pipe coming out of the store will go cold when running two outlets), or is the store doing it's job and there's another fault (the store outlet will stay warm, but the blending valve output will get cool) ?

Lastly, have you measured the flow rates involved. It's worth doing to see if you are drawing significantly more or less than the store is supposed to be able to supply. To measure flow rates, use a large jug or bucket and a stopwatch - it's then simple maths to get flow rates.
It's not easy to find somebody who knows TS well. The guy who fitted it has emigrated. I've had three or four plumbers look at it for various reasons over the last couple of years

a) BG guys just couldn't figure it out.
Not really a surprise - they'll be doing combis, S plan and Y plan all day long and probably very little else.
b) The guy who changed my boiler 18 months ago did figure out how the whole thing works. He is a straight up guy but says that my system is not how he usually does things ie he does mainly mega flows.
That's part of the problem - people are only "comfortable" with a limited range of systems. That's not a criticism, people can only be fully conversant with a limited amount of stuff - and thermal stores are still quite uncommon. This guy is at least honest and tells you that, rather than ...
c) The sub contractor who just moved the TS for the loft conversion company (as mentioned my loft conversion is under way)
He tried to tell me this is some kind of ancient system and I should consider ripping it out and installing a mega flo.
I think this is quite common - both from personal experience, from people I know have told me of their experiences, and from threads on here. Too many are prepared to tell you it needs ripping out for no other reason than they don't understand it and aren't prepared to admit that.

BTW - did the contractor install the automatic bypass valve in the heating loop, or was it already there ? It really shouldn't be there at all with your setup and the only thing it can possibly do (other than nothing) is to confuse the modulating pump and make it pump faster/harder than it should.
I have guy b) coming around next week to have a look and tell me whether he thinks a Mega flo would solve my issue.
Well it would, but then you'd lose the benefit of running the heating off the store rather than direct off the boiler.
 
BTW - I have an idea how to upgrade the system if indeed it is the DHW coil that's inadequate, I'll have to sketch it out for you when I have a few minutes.
 

DIYnot Local

Staff member

If you need to find a tradesperson to get your job done, please try our local search below, or if you are doing it yourself you can find suppliers local to you.

Select the supplier or trade you require, enter your location to begin your search.


Are you a trade or supplier? You can create your listing free at DIYnot Local

 
Sponsored Links
Back
Top