Moving this away from a thread

[EFLImpudence]

So - the boiler is not a good enough example because it's not available in the UK. If I did bring it back, would it require a 3A fuse?


Ok. Then let us take the humble extractor fan.
Please find a European example which does call for 3A protection.

 

[JohnW2]

So it seems it does not ask for a fuse in Europe so installers are not going against any manufacturers instructions fitting European models with external fuse. And a hunt for English version quickly shows this boiler is not marketed in the UK, there is a different version for UK so what is required in Europe has no bearing as to what is required in UK they are different products.

Do you really believe that a 'different version' (in reality, probably only differing in labelling) produced for the UK would be (electrically) different enough to need an external 3A fuse when non-UK versions didn't need such a fuse?

Kind Regards, John

 

[ericmark]

As I said the Irish version has built in fuse, it does seem different versions are sold in UK to rest of Europe, although it is likely they are nearly the same just minor changes.

Yes I think the UK models should include the fuse in the boiler like the rest of Europe, however not much we can do about it.

 

[JohnW2]

As I said the Irish version has built in fuse ...

Yes, I noticed that you said that, but it confused me, but I forgot to comment.

I thought that the Irish (by which I presume you mean ROI) have similar electrical installations to the UK. If that's true, then it would seem to make even less sense for them to include a fuse in the Irish version but not the UK one.

Kind Regards, John

 

[ericmark]

I would agree, I think it is so much easier to have the fuse in the boiler, I will guess it is a historical thing from the days when the central heating was a collection of parts. Today so much is inside the boiler box, pump, diverter valves and by-pass valves all in one box.

In the early days of central heating is was about the most complex electrical system in a house, and installers got it wrong so many times, no wonder the manufactures tried to include as much as could in one box, why this has not included the fuse I have no idea.

 

[JohnW2]

I would agree, I think it is so much easier to have the fuse in the boiler ....

If everything that is beiong suggested is true, it seems pretty daft they they should include a fuse in machines they make for sale in virtually every country of the world, but go to the trouble of removing/omitting it in just those to be sold in the UK - after all, there's surely no question of it doing any harm?

Do we think that they really are that silly?!

Kind Regards, John

 

[ericmark]

I would guess the boiler in UK does have internal fuses, but only for the boiler, not for all the bits outside the boiler, be it programmer, motorised valve, pump, thermostat or any other external bit, most have 3 amp max marked on them.

I may have made a mistake wiring my boiler, I used a single FCU for all, and when the plumber was due to do some work on the boiler, he asked me to turn it off night before so cold to work on, so I flicked off the FCU. However once plumber had finished and I turned it back on, it would not do anything until the back up battery on the thermostat had recharged, so may have been better with second switch for thermostat so boiler can be turned off, but thermostat left running?

Not going to change it, if it happens again I will simply turn down the temperature, and not turn off FCU until he arrives, but to my mind this

Is the best isolation method, both poles, no one can plug it back in, so although I have a FCU I think there is a lot to be said for simple plug and socket.

 

[JohnW2]

I would guess the boiler in UK does have internal fuses, but only for the boiler, not for all the bits outside the boiler, be it programmer, motorised valve, pump, thermostat or any other external bit, most have 3 amp max marked on them.

Well, as we know, guessing is not really recommended but, that apart, isn't this getting totally silly? ....

Are you now suggesting that, even in the UK, a boiler does not need external fuses (because it has internal ones), but that manufacturers of boilers (when, and only when, selling their boilers to the UK) nevertheless insist on an external 3A fuse to protect other manufacturer's bits and pieces? !!

I may have made a mistake wiring my boiler, I used a single FCU for all, and when the plumber was due to do some work on the boiler, he asked me to turn it off night before so cold to work on, so I flicked off the FCU. However once plumber had finished and I turned it back on, it would not do anything until the back up battery on the thermostat had recharged, so may have been better with second switch for thermostat so boiler can be turned off, but thermostat left running?

I've never had anything but a single FCU or single plug and socket supplying my entire heating system (including all the bits and pieces you mention) and it's no problem for me, because I don't have any new-fangled things that need to charge up batteries when the power is switched on before my heating system will work - once my heating system has power, it works

From the point of view of safety, I would say that a single FCU/plug for the entire heating system is the safest way to go.

Kind Regards, John

 

[winston1]

but that manufacturers of boilers (when, and only when, selling their boilers to the UK) nevertheless insist on an external 3A fuse to protect other manufacturer's bits and pieces? !!

It is simply, as is so often the case, that the people the manufacturer employs to write the manuals don't know what fuses are for.

 

[JohnW2]

It is simply, as is so often the case, that the people the manufacturer employs to write the manuals don't know what fuses are for.

That's certainly possibly part of it. However, I find it very hard to believe that they don't get someone who "knows what he/she is talking about" to 'vet' their instructions (just as with adverts and other promotional material), to make sure that they don't contain anything 'dangerous' which could have serious legal/financial consequences for the manufacturer. In totally unrelated fields, I am quite often asked to do such 'vetting'.

 

[ericmark]

Well @winston1 may have a valid point, I know with for example a freezer, volt drop is a problem when using a single phase motor, and as a result saying in the instructions do not use an extension lead makes a lot of sense, but when as with the the high end freezers a switch mode power system supplies three phase to the freezers motor volt drop is no longer a problem, but the manual still says do not use extension leads.

We are all inherently lazy, and even if the writers of the instructions should know better, there is a tendency not to reduce the requirements even when no longer required, as to @JohnW2 comments, we can read Screwfix instructions and flinch, they get it wrong so often, one wonders if they employ school children, is it a work experience thing? OK not manufactures only retailers, but do the manufacturers actually employ

someone who "knows what he/she is talking about" to 'vet' their instructions (just as with adverts and other promotional material)

or do they leave it to the advertisement agency?

I have seen items battery operated with instructions clearly intended for mains powered devices.

 

[SUNRAY]

It is simply, as is so often the case, that the people the manufacturer employs to write the manuals don't know what fuses are for.

That could be the case but it's irrelevant. MI's are MI's whether right or wrong and any future problems are very easily dismissed if MI's are not followed.

I was involved after a fire started in a 9KW kiln. MI stated 40A MCB but it was wired into a 40A BS88 fuse. Owner didn't have insurance to cover the specific damage [had changed the kiln and not notified insurance] and no claim against manufacturer as MI's not followed.

 

[EFLImpudence]

So - the one Winston pictured of the MIs stating an FCU with a 16A fuse are on to a winner then; selling any old crap with impunity.

There seems to be a huge lack of common sense around.

 

[winston1]

That could be the case but it's irrelevant. MI's are MI's whether right or wrong and any future problems are very easily dismissed if MI's are not followed.

I was involved after a fire started in a 9KW kiln. MI stated 40A MCB but it was wired into a 40A BS88 fuse. Owner didn't have insurance to cover the specific damage [had changed the kiln and not notified insurance] and no claim against manufacturer as MI's not followed.

Did it go to court? I've a feeling it would not stand up if so.

 

[EFLImpudence]

There seems to be a huge lack of common sense around.

...and an acceptance of what is said/written without question.