Mr Bates and the post office

[SirGalahad]

Irrelevant: people are instructing people.
People are doing, or not doing.


And, even if they were (encouraged, or not, as the case may be), it would still have been by people.

100%

It's always convenient to blame the system - but the system includes and requires people. The system is an amorphous mass where blaming it means no one takes the blame.

Sure someone working under a failing system can make horrible decisions but they are making those decisions based on what the top brass want to achieve so again people as you say.

 

[gas112]

People on commission or bonus, like those in the PO.

And pressure from above to hit targets and people not strong enough to answer back about what is right or wrong

 

[Odds]

100%

It's always convenient to blame the system - but the system includes and requires people. The system is an amorphous mass where blaming it means no one takes the blame.

Sure someone working under a failing system can make horrible decisions but they are making those decisions based on what the top brass want to achieve so again people as you say.

That's not the point Brigadear is making.
Decisions were made from the top of the PO to hide the truth and prosecute the sub-postmasters regardless of the truth. This became company policy from the moment the decision was made and continued to be policy for many years, despite (Sir) Alan Bates protests.

 

[Brigadier]

That's not the point Brigadear is making.
Decisions were made from the top of the PO to hide the truth and prosecute the sub-postmasters regardless of the truth. This became company policy from the moment the decision was made and continued to be policy for many years, despite (Sir) Alan Bates protests.

It is exactly the point I have made, repeatedly.

PEOPLE.

 

[Brigadier]

@Odds

Who or what is currently answering questions, in front of the Horizon inquiry?


Is it a person?

 

[Odds]

@Odds

Who or what is currently answering questions, in front of the Horizon inquiry?


Is it a person?

Could well be a frog in fancy dress for that matter.
They're still there on behalf of the company.

 

[gas112]

Shyte comes down it very rarely goes back up due to middle management being to scared so when a company policy is clearly wrong as must have been very apparent it is every level of employees job to raise issues and pass them up the line even refuse to work to it instead of just continuing to work to that policy as you know at some point you personally could be held responsible .

 

[SirGalahad]

The Post Office was run by people when issues arose they put faith in the IT system and the supplier over and above the Post masters because the people in the PO and Fujitsu had vested interests - their own.

Whenever there is a failure of anything even for example the plane crashes of Boeing 737 due to their MCAS system and poor implementation because they were rushing to compete with Airbus so cut corners - there is always human input.

Until we have AI deciding to be judge, jury and executioner you can always trace problems back to people or the environment (created by the management) is the route cause.

 

[SirGalahad]

Shyte comes down it very rarely goes back up due to middle management being to scared so when a company policy is clearly wrong as must have been very apparent it is every level of employees job to raise issues and pass them up the line even refuse to work to it instead of just continuing to work to that policy as you know at some point you personally could be held responsible .

That is common throughout the world and then drilled into you - you must respect authority, there is some need to respect authority but not the slavish sycophancy it has now become.

 

[Brigadier]

Could well be a frog in fancy dress for that matter.
They're still there on behalf of the company.

Do you or did you hide behind "the company", when shoite is going down?

 

[Odds]

Do you or did you hide behind "the company", when shoite is going down?

I've never worked for the Post Office.

 

[Notch7]

It is exactly the point I have made, repeatedly.

PEOPLE.

Once you reduce it to the basics, the blame has to lie with people


It was people who chose to believe their IT system above the postmasters
it was people who ignored complaints raised
it was people who ignored and covered up for years

Computer shopper magazine started raising concerns about this in 2008

 

[Notch7]

Shyte comes down it very rarely goes back up due to middle management being to scared so when a company policy is clearly wrong as must have been very apparent it is every level of employees job to raise issues and pass them up the line even refuse to work to it instead of just continuing to work to that policy as you know at some point you personally could be held responsible .

I remember my lecturer at college in a production management course saying: “sh1t always slides downhill”

It is true

 

[Odds]

Once you reduce it to the basics, the blame has to lie with people


It was people who chose to believe their IT system above the postmasters
it was people who ignored complaints raised
it was people who ignored and covered up for years

Computer shopper magazine started raising concerns about this in 2008

Surprised at you taking the 'Corporations are people' approach - they'll rescind your 'Socialist Workers card', if you're not careful.

 

[Notch7]

Surprised at you taking the 'Corporations are people' approach - they'll rescind your 'Socialist Workers card', if you're not careful.

I am not sure I understand

what are corporations if they aren’t people?

If people in a corporation do bad things, the corporation are culpable - it’s their people, their management culture, their cover ups.