No Fensa Certificate

[johnny2007]

IMHO and my first hand experience the only people who care about Fensa are window companies themselves.

Finally the truth from planet earth.

 

[ronniecabers]

Do you think installers really want to spend hundreds of pounds a year just to ' care about Fensa ' ??
Do you think we WANT to give a 10 year guarantee, and a 10 Yr insurance back warranty , as well where we get nothing back from suppliers in Labour costs when things fail and we have to correct it?
Do you think we WANT to have to sit tests to gain an MTC card so that Fensa will let us register installations and be part of their little gang?
I can tell you now that we don't necessarily WANT to but we have to. It is an Industry must , a window company not registered with Fensa ( or Certass ) is viewed with suspicion and contempt. It is like Gassafe and Part P electrics, it is all about making YOUR home safer and more energy efficient. Fensa/Certass are schemes that check companies are doing everything right, its not just the windows that get inspected, even our paperwork gets checked as part of the schemes.
Trust me , Its all a pain in the backside to installers, its all ' red tape ' but we have to do it and as I said before when buying and selling a house , at the bare minimum, the buyers solicitor should be requesting that certificate if new windows have been fitted , as it is a LEGAL REQUIREMENT to have new windows registered with your local authority building control ( which is where Fensa/Certass registered installers come in , as we do it for the homeowner) . It is the same concepts as for any work that has been carried out for Gassafe or Part P compliance for electrics.
It irritates me the niaivity of some towards how far the window industry has come from the 80s and how much beaucracy , 'hoops' and legislation that the industry has to adhere to all in the name of Fensa/Certass we don't necessarily WANT to,we HAVE to!

 

[mrrusty]

OK, I'll bite.

My understanding is that Fensa has NO responsibility for any quality control other than energy saving materials have been used. So install windows with big gaps around the frame, or leave a bay creaking because the removed timber windows supported it and the new uPVC don't, and Fensa are about as much use to the householder as a chocolate fire guard. I can tell you through personal experience of making my own windows and doors, that BC are really not that bothered, and from selling a recent house neither are buyers and buyers solicitors. Whatever your direct experience, my own experience is that nobody really cares. This is IMHO, because Fensa has no teeth for bad workmanship - it is just a membership club that has managed to get a pseudo semblance of useful quality control.

 

[ronniecabers]

OK, I'll bite.

My understanding is that Fensa has NO responsibility for any quality control other than energy saving materials have been used. So install windows with big gaps around the frame, or leave a bay creaking because the removed timber windows supported it and the new uPVC don't, and Fensa are about as much use to the householder as a chocolate fire guard. I can tell you through personal experience of making my own windows and doors, that BC are really not that bothered, and from selling a recent house neither are buyers and buyers solicitors. Whatever your direct experience, my own experience is that nobody really cares. This is IMHO, because Fensa has no teeth for bad workmanship - it is just a membership club that has managed to get a pseudo semblance of useful quality control.

 

[ronniecabers]

You are right in that Fensa has no ' responsibility ' but if a window is put in incorrectly ( the bay window for example ) that is gross negligence and needs to be dealt with, you still need to complain to Fensa , as installers can get barred from the schemes. Most , and I stress most are very good companies with the odd bad apple ( always worth complaining about too as word of mouth recommendations can be vital).
I had heard rumours that BC weren't interested and I personally have raised this with Fensas competition, Certass , and it was being looked into.
As goes the non request of certificates... thats down to ill informed solicitors . I have been asked for certificates by solicitors for just glass replacement before now, so just shows how much they actually know. We generally end up educating the solicitors when they contact us( which is quite alarming)
From the sounds of it , it seems to be regional ' issues ' with solicitors and BC...I can see all this changing though, as currently the Competent Persons Schemes are being assessed by the government to make them more successful.

I appreciate that different people in different areas will have differing experiences but as a whole, it doesn't change the fact that that certificate is supposed to be a legal requirement

 

[johnny2007]

Fensa certificate is NOT a legal requirement.
Please don't make this up.
The windows built to regulations and installed accordingly ARE a legal requirement.
Window warranty is exactly like fensa certificate: it's not worth the paper printed on.
Any major problem with a window will be skipped by 90% of companies (NOTE: NOT ALL OF THEM) and if sued, they'll just pack up the limited company and open a new one.
The windows insurance might help in case of problems, but we all know what insurers do.
Never, ever I cared or I was asked for a fensa certificate when buying and selling houses.
Also, i was never asked for a fensa certificate from BC for an extension or new built.
I remember a customer who wanted it and I got it from the installer.
Also, my suspicion is that many companies display the fensa logo without being registered, at least here in west london.
One more important thing: fensa is not the same as gas safe or part p electric.
You can't compare.
Apart from a little draft or cracks due to poor installation, a bad window will not kill people, unless in a freak accident.
And please don't mention the hinges, they're all compliant and i don't think you can now buy the old style non compliant ones.

 

[ronniecabers]

Sorry my bad i meant it proves you meet the legal requirements ( well 2 actually)
If you suspect companies are using Fenss logos and aren't registered .... report them Trading Standards have prosecuted people for this in the past
Fensa certificate is not required for an extension if being done under Building control approval ( which most are)
I can not discuss context if the insurance backed warranties , as we are not allowed too ( in case of misrepresentation) and I can 100% say they work as we have done work for the insurance companies, as has @crank39 , who in fact i believe most of his Work is insurance work. ( first port of call is always the instsllers guarantee however)
A poor window can indeed kill you , lack of trickle vents for carbon monoxide build up ( yes this is what they are for NOT reduction of condensation) , lack of Toughened glass in doors and other critical locations, lack of fire escape provision...badly installed bay s , I could list more ....
And hinges? I guess you mean for fire escape? And yes the 'old style' ( guessing you mean non fire egress/easyclean) as you put it are very much still available and still used widely where no fire escape route is needed

So these are some of the things Fensa / Certass registered companies should know as standard practice

 

[mrrusty]

Fensa certificate is not required for an extension if being done under Building control approval ( which most are)

Which in itself proves that BC don't give a FF. To get an extension signed off you have to issue BC with the leccy certificate and gas certificate from the approved installers. Why not the window certificate if it is so important? Is it because all BC do is check that the glass is safety where required, the fire exits are available and the rest doesn't really matter? After all, no BC is going to be able to look at a DGU and tell by looking if it's coated thermal glass with argon, or not... QED.

 

[crank39]

Window warranty is exactly like fensa certificate: it's not worth the paper printed on.

Any major problem with a window will be skipped by 90% of companies (NOTE: NOT ALL OF THEM) and if sued, they'll just pack up the limited company and open a new one.

The windows insurance might help in case of problems, but we all know what insurers do.

Ok I'll bite too

I work directly for/employed by the warranty provider to assess issues with installs after the original installer has ceased trading, I'm not an independant assessor, I tell it to the warranty providor as I see it on site and I can tell you the IBG is worth every single penny of the 15 or so quid it costs the customer/policy holder.

I agree with you about firms still trading when it comes to doing work under their own 10 year guarantee, very hit and miss and like you say when the complaints mount up they just close and reopen again sometimes in the same unit, same phone number and vans, that is something the government need to stop but there are so many loopholes its probably impossible.

Back to the warranty/insurers and 'we know what they do' well I can only speak for the one I work for and I can tell you they don't operate like that, if i was to put a number on it I'd say 90% of my reports are approved, infact the only things that seem to get declined are torn gaskets on thresholds and scratched handles from keys or rings. Remember all the warranty providor does is mirror the T&C's of the original contract which they will have a copy of when they accept the installer as a member, if the installer would have covered it then so will the insurer and in most cases they go beyond what they should, I remember attending a leaking conservatory roof, double hipped with a box gutter, it was a total disaster. The PH told me the installer never sent them any paperwork, always promising it was registered and must be in the post, problems arose with the conny and they found out the installer went bust, not having any paperwork they didn't know if it was registered, insured or anything so they decided to ring FENSA, they were no help - 'sorry we have no record of you', so she rang the other one up, they said we can see the installer was a member but has ceased trading, the PH told them she had no paperwork to prove it was insured or anything, so this 'other' company emailed the insurer on behalf of the PH and the insurer found the records, the installer did actually register the install and the conny was covered, now they could have easily said sorry we have no record of you or the install so we can't do anything.....bye, but they did not, in the end it was cheaper in the longrun to put a new roof on, from memory it was a 5k job, 5k the insurer could have got away with if they weren't so honest, 5k I cost the insurer and I work directly for them, I just earn a basic wage and salaried at that, I didn't write the roof off because I needed the work, we have claims coming out of every orriface but if its wrong then I tell them its wrong so yeah the IBG IS worth the paper its written on 100%

 

[diy_fun_uk]

To an extent this type of thing seems like bureaucracy gone slightly mad. Whilst the rationale behind legally and/or organisationally backed schemes is obviously good and we should always strive for things to be better and safer, to what extent does it actually have a positive impact? You still read stories (some of them horror stories) about poor double glazing installs whether just the install, product or both. And I've also read things about NICEIC, Gas Safe registered installers carrying out sub standard work, again sometimes very sub standard. I've heard heating engineers say things like Gas Safe does little in ensuring your install will be to a high standard, but do offer a semblance of comeback/protection should something go wrong.

You see more and more of this in the BTL market. Landlords need to have certificates and registration for this that and the other, with some things to be re-done at each change of tenant. Again I'm not saying this isn't a good thing as it helps ensure properties are safe to a certain degree. However you still get many landlords that don't comply and fly below the radar.

If everyone in the supply chain simply did their job properly we wouldn't need all the pesky paperwork

(that's a tongue in cheek comment, I don't need comeback on why we do need the paperwork )

 

[frutbunn]

Which in itself proves that BC don't give a FF. To get an extension signed off you have to issue BC with the leccy certificate and gas certificate from the approved installers. Why not the window certificate if it is so important? Is it because all BC do is check that the glass is safety where required, the fire exits are available and the rest doesn't really matter? After all, no BC is going to be able to look at a DGU and tell by looking if it's coated thermal glass with argon, or not... QED.

The FENSA self cert scheme only covers replacement of existing windows, windows installed in a new build are covered by the B reg application.
Just to clarify for replacement windows means of escape should be no worse than previously fitted, so if they are non compliant a similar non compliant window can be installed.
The main reason for this reg is to upgrade the window for thermal insulation, in reality most likely its introduction was politically motivated so some minister could claim they are being pro active in reducing emissions.
Enforcement of Part L in relation to replacement windows is not particularly high on the list for most LA, in any case I'm pretty sure if you passed this up to the legal section to action court proceedings you'd get the reply "not in the public interest"

There have been some comments regarding toughened glass in replacement windows/doors this not a requirement of B Regs.

 

[Doug99]

My daughter is about to find out how robust (or otherwise) her FENSA certificate is.
Just bought a house where a FENSA certified door was installed just under 2 years ago.
The glass has a rubber seal missing (not leaking....yet) and water is seeping in from above the door frame during high winds/rain.
On contacting the installer, it appears that the warranty is not transferable to the new house owner and is only applicable to the original purchaser (Is this standard practice?). He has suggested the leak is a structural problem (but how he can say this without a visit is beyond me).
She has asked the installer to provide the missing seal and await his response in anticipation.

 

[crank39]

Just to clarify - FENSA has nothing to do with workmanship or warranty issues, it's a self certification scheme that's all.

Having worked directly for a warranty provider (QANW) and carried thousands of repairs for them I've come across this 'non transferable' question before, if they are saying it's not transferable it physically needs to say that in the T&C's, it may not even say it is transferable so there's your ammunition, if it doesn't say it isn't then it can't be both, it's one or the other. I've never come across a policy that belonged to the homeowner, the warranty applies to the installation not the person.

You really need to read the T&C's or get them to send them to you specifically highlighting the bit that says it's not transferable

 

[ronniecabers]

Doug... The installer is wrong, under the rules of fensa ( and certass), the companies written warranty now has to be transferable. I believe its been like this for 3 or so years. Personally the installer strikes me as an ass.. For the cost of a bit of gasket which would take minutes to replace, he's risking his reputation, as you certainly wouldn't recommend him

 

[Doug99]

Doug... The installer is wrong, under the rules of fensa ( and certass), the companies written warranty now has to be transferable. I believe its been like this for 3 or so years. Personally the installer strikes me as an ass.. For the cost of a bit of gasket which would take minutes to replace, he's risking his reputation, as you certainly wouldn't recommend him

This the reply from FENSA - It seems that a house owner can install very expensive bi-folding patio doors, provide a FENSA certificate and with missing seals and leaking frames, can sell the property without any comeback to the original installer.

Thank you for contacting us.
Please be advised that it is correct that we require FENSA registered businesses to give their customers an installation guarantee for works completed of between 5 and 10 years.
We are not able to dictate the terms of the guarantee an installer gives their customers. In common with many double glazing installers it is usual that the guarantee is not transferable between one householder and another for the same property. Where an installer will allow the guarantee to be transferred, this is normally subject to an administration charge.
Please check the terms and conditions of your contract and if transferable, contact the installer to discuss this matter