No Water in Hot Water Tank?

[Agile]

A cheap multimeter is about £10 or less!

I really dont understand why you seem to want to remove the immersion element when a new one would cost about £20 and you have no idea even if its faulty. It may just be the supply fuse or breaker has failed!

Tools to remove it would probably cost many pounds as a simple £3 spanner rarely works. I usually have to use a 3' Stillson!

Tony

 

[Kelanen]

I wouldn't pull out the immersion without draining and isolating the cylinder AND only then if you know its at fault - Are you sure its switched on?

Yes, there is a fused power switch in the airing cupboard.power

You should have a 16Amp breaker on your consumer unit (hopefully your electrics are up to scratch)

Yes there is a 16amp breaker, untripped.

for it which leads to a fused switch in the airing cupboard (is this fuse AND breaker ok?) is the fused switch turned on?

Yes and yes. I have replaced the fuse in the airing cupboard with a known working one, to no effect. And yes it was turned on.

is the thermostat on the element turned up (~60 degrees?) is there a reset on the thermostat?

It was 65, but I had turned it up and down with no effect. I don't believe there is any reset - this would be a button?

 

[Kelanen]

Basically my boiler is dead, and needs replacing. I've explored that elsewhere, but it's not relevant here (I think). Should it have any significance, it's a Potterton Netaheat 16/22, non-combi gas boiler, and it's ~25 years old.

How do you know the boiler is dead? Has it been checked by a registered engineer?

[/quote]

No it hasn't, it;s been diagnosed by similar boards to these, but I can't afford an engineer call out.

I did do lots of phoning around whilst I was at my mothers in Kent (I don't have a phone) to find an engineer that would do a free consultation to assess it (several were advertising it), but most would only do it if I was looking at repalcing the CH system, not just for a repair, and the one company that said they would come and look, later cancelled on me and said they weren't interested.

Tinkering with the boiler has shown I can get about an hours use out of it every 3 days at some random point, but it consumes gas the whole time, even when not lit.

Are you saying that it leaks gas? That's dangerous and the boiler should be disconnected and the supply capped off.

When I turn the boiler off no gas is consumed. When I turn it on, the fan runs, the solenoid clicks etc, but 99% of the time no pilot, and no flame. Watching the gas meter however shows that gas is being steadily used all the time however, and there's a slight whiff of it in the sideway where it vents.

Whether it's consuming the full amount of gas and just dumping it unburnt, or just a small amount leaking I don't know. I suspect the latter, since you can't light the air from the vent (after off for 24hrs, no build up etc) but I though it best to just turn the whole system off.

What tinkering do you do to get it working?

I tried all the tapping the wires and circuits with a wooden spoon whilst it was on to check for loose connections as suggested, took off the clear plastic tubes (pressure valve?) and sucked and blowed etc, none of it made a difference.

Turning different parts of the system (thermostat, CH clock and boiler) off and on in certain orders seemed to make a difference, but now I think that was just random chance - I can't get anything to work repeatedly - sometimes it comes on, mostly it doesn't. Sometimes it would come on of it's own accord, after having sat there on but not working for hours...

As you are on benefits, you may be eligible for a Warmfront Grant to replace the boiler.

Thank you, I wasn't aware of this... I will look into it.

 

[Kelanen]

start with (c)
Identify the problem before applying a solution.

I really dont understand why you seem to want to remove the immersion element when a new one would cost about £20 and you have no idea even if its faulty.

I agree in principle. My reason for going for the immersion unit was that I could actually do this myself, as opposed to the electronics that I couldn't test.

It may just be the supply fuse or breaker has failed!

As per previous replies, the fuse is definitely okay, and the breaker not ripped.

Tools to remove it would probably cost many pounds as a simple £3 spanner rarely works. I usually have to use a 3' Stillson!

Okay, this is probably why I am struggling! - I just have the £3 spanner - it's all B&Q's had, and I did talk to a guy there, who said that's all it needed.

 

[Agile]

Its all thats needed if it was fitted during the last six months too a new cylinder and the installer put silicone grease on the threads and washer as I do.

If it was fitted by anyone else they love to cover it in water joing sealer which hardens and makes it almost impossible to remove without damaging the cylinder.

If its 20 years old then it gets worse!

Tony

 

[Kelanen]

Its all thats needed if it was fitted during the last six months too a new cylinder and the installer put silicone grease on the threads and washer as I do.

If it was fitted by anyone else they love to cover it in water joing sealer which hardens and makes it almost impossible to remove without damaging the cylinder.

If its 20 years old then it gets worse!

Thanks Tony - Great! lol

I'm pretty sure it's 25 years old...

And this was the showhome for the estate, and lots of things have been done quick rather than right from the original build, so I won't hold my breath.

I've been trying WD40 to no avail. Anything else you can suggest, or is it just a bruteforce and hope job?

 

[Kelanen]

A problem with that does occur to me with going the multimeter/electronics route is what does it gain me if it shows this to be the problem? The fuses and breakers are okay, the wiring in the switch is okay, anything else is cable embedded in the walls, that I'm not going to be able to get to anyway.

Mind you, if I can't the immersion heater out, I can't do anything down that route either, so I may yet be stuck on kettles...

 

[D_Hailsham]

No it hasn't, it's been diagnosed by similar boards to these, but I can't afford an engineer call out.

But you haven't asked this board to diagnose the problem. Yo never know, we might be able to do what others can't.

When I turn the boiler off no gas is consumed. When I turn it on, the fan runs, the solenoid clicks etc, but 99% of the time no pilot, and no flame. Watching the gas meter however shows that gas is being steadily used all the time however, and there's a slight whiff of it in the sideway where it vents.

When you have the boiler turned on the meter moves, even if the boiler is not lit? That's dangerous - even if it is only a small leak. Might be worth calling National Grid (0800 111 999) and saying you can smell gas.

As there is a problem with gas leaking, the main problem is probably a fault on the gas side, not the electrics, so tapping things with a wooden spoon will not solve anything.

 

[JohnD]

you seem to want to replace the immersion heater without finding out if it is faulty.

IMO that is the height of folly

For much much much less than the price of a new immersion (plus the new cylinder at £200 or so if you damage the old one, plus the cost of drying out and replastering your ceiling) you can get a £10 multimeter in the high street.

You need to know:
Is there 230V at the immersion heater terminals (not just at the thermostat)
What is the resistance across the heating element

these tests will take a couple of minutes to do, including reading the instructions twice

You can post a pic of the connections inside the immersion cap if you like

turn off the power first and test for dead

 

[Kelanen]

No it hasn't, it's been diagnosed by similar boards to these, but I can't afford an engineer call out.

But you haven't asked this board to diagnose the problem. Yo never know, we might be able to do what others can't.

Very true!

Essentially everyone said the boiler went obsolete in 1983 (the year it was put in), no parts would be available, and it has a reputation as a 'widowmaker' anyway. Therefore the boiler needed replacing. All very true, but not useful currently. lol

When you have the boiler turned on the meter moves, even if the boiler is not lit?

That's correct, and at a rate visible to the naked eye too.

 

[Kelanen]

you seem to want to replace the immersion heater without finding out if it is faulty.

No not at all, it was just the logical step for me, and also I was limiting myself to things I could do, although since I currently can'tundo the immersion heater thread, I was wrong there too ! lol

I will try the multimeter route next as general consensus suggests. I'm just not sure what to do if it shows a fault. lol

You can post a pic of the connections inside the immersion cap if you like

Sure - I already photographed it before I took the connections off ( I took a dozen or so photos before I did anything, but only posted three earlier.

 

[JohnD]

I will try the multimeter route next as general consensus suggests. I'm just not sure what to do if it shows a fault.

tell us the results.

 

[nitro23456]

Looks like that was done relatively recently (compared to the age of the cylinder)

Can't see if it has a reset due to the glare of the photo but itd look like this:

Ball point pen or whatever in the recess to reset.

It is beginning to sound more and more like a knackered element based on what you are telling us that you deffo have power there.

 

[Kelanen]

Looks like that was done relatively recently (compared to the age of the cylinder)

Based on the wiring colours?

Can't see if it has a reset due to the glare of the photo but itd look like this:

Ball point pen or whatever in the recess to reset.

No, it only has two screws to clamp the wires in the side, and a dial (in Farenheit). there doesn't appear to be a way to get the cover off without forcing it either.

It is beginning to sound more and more like a knackered element based on what you are telling us that you deffo have power there.

Well I don't know that I definitely have power there yet, but the fuses and trips are definitely okay.

I've just arrived home with s shiny.. well, yellow and plasticky.. lol multimeter, so I will let you know. Just going to read up on what I'm doing.. lol

 

[Soggy_weetabix]

Be carefull OP, Tony will ask if you drink or smoke soon. JUST SAY NO!