Thanks for comments guys.
Part P Electrical Installation Certification
- Thread starter RickH
- Start date
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Just as clarification for @RickH. There is indeed an option where notifiable electrical work can be carried out by a competent DIYer and for that the work to be certified and notified by a third party electrician.
BUT BUT
the rules are
1. the electrician must be registered with his competent person scheme (CPS) as an Electrical Third Party Certification Scheme member. Not all CPS do this. And being a Third Party Certifier is an additional cost to the basic CPS ££. Also its a PITA and not many electricians take this up.
2.When electrical work is to be done by the DIYer and certified/notified by the third party electrician, then the electrician must be engaged before any work starts. The electrician will visit to specify and oversee the works (first,second fix, etc) so that he/she can ensure compliance with regulations. It is not a retrospective "sign off".
Theres more about the Electrical Third Party Certification Scheme here.
Electrical Third Party Certification | NAPIT
The Third Party Certification scheme allows you to check and certify domestic electrical work undertaken by others via inspection and reporting procedures
www.napit.org.uk
I'm afraid that you only have one option, and that is to suck it up, and pay LABC. Sorry.
Thanks for this explanation - the LABC say this was the case, but the door has been closed in Wales, and no longer acceptable for anyone other than the original installer or them to certify new workJust as clarification for @RickH. There is indeed an option where notifiable electrical work can be carried out by a competent DIYer and for that the work to be certified and notified by a third party electrician.
BUT BUT
the rules are
1. the electrician must be registered with his competent person scheme (CPS) as an Electrical Third Party Certification Scheme member. Not all CPS do this. And being a Third Party Certifier is an additional cost to the basic CPS ££. Also its a PITA and not many electricians take this up.
2.When electrical work is to be done by the DIYer and certified/notified by the third party electrician, then the electrician must be engaged before any work starts. The electrician will visit to specify and oversee the works (first,second fix, etc) so that he/she can ensure compliance with regulations. It is not a retrospective "sign off".
Theres more about the Electrical Third Party Certification Scheme here.
Electrical Third Party Certification | NAPIT
The Third Party Certification scheme allows you to check and certify domestic electrical work undertaken by others via inspection and reporting procedures
I'm afraid that you only have one option, and that is to suck it up, and pay LABC. Sorry.
We are going round in circles, but:
The third party scheme is no different than electrician and labourer relationship. That has always been acceptable even before the schemes decided to raise more money by inventing things.
However, in this case the original installer was always and still is available to issue the EIC.
The door was never open in Wales nor England.
The third party scheme is no different than electrician and labourer relationship. That has always been acceptable even before the schemes decided to raise more money by inventing things.
However, in this case the original installer was always and still is available to issue the EIC.
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Indeed - that's close to a much naughtier variant of that which was the first thing that came into my mind, but which I wouldn't dare mention/suggest here!
As you say, one would imagine that the electrics of a garage would be pretty trivial, and also probably visible/accessible. Even if the friendly electrician felt obliged to go through the motions of 're-installing' (after 'removal'), I'm not sure what that 'removal' and 're-installation' would have to consist of - maybe just disconnecting, and then re-connecting the cables to accessories, perhaps? If so, then doing that and then testing a couple or so circuits would probably take no more than half an hour.
Kind Regards, John
It's certainly a thought - not a huge amount ..... all cables are either surface clipped or the drops to sockets are in PVC conduit.
The ccts are 1 x ring main (4 double sockets)
3 x 1w lighting ccts (4 fluorescents, and 1 flood)
1 x 32A power feed to outside supply
Whole garage is fed from TT supply in-house, local earth rod for garage and a separate earth rod for the 32A power feed.
All tested by Electrician, recorded etc.
Anybody interested in the job ?
The ccts are 1 x ring main (4 double sockets)
3 x 1w lighting ccts (4 fluorescents, and 1 flood)
1 x 32A power feed to outside supply
Whole garage is fed from TT supply in-house, local earth rod for garage and a separate earth rod for the 32A power feed.
All tested by Electrician, recorded etc.
Anybody interested in the job ?
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The problem is the LABC know you have installed the circuits and your electrician has lied and said he installed them when he hadn't, and any electrician would I would think want to talk to his scheme provider before taking on a job like yours as last thing he wants is to be thrown off the scheme.
I would think sorry don't want to get involved, you clearly want to pay less than £322 other wise simple you would pay the LABC, when I had LABC involved it was because the local authority was very much involved with my mothers welfare, so to do any illegal work was likely to get caught out doing.
And my attempts to get a local firm to do the work failed, at least within a reasonable time. To be frank I was surprised there was a problem with me doing the work, both my son and I are electricians and we had all the test equipment, which was there for the LABC inspector to see. I am sure the LABC inspector had no idea what a C&G 2391 was, my son had done work in England many times without having any problem getting the completion certificate.
But put yourself in the electricians place, would you get involved for less than £322 in a job which could result in loosing your living, I wouldn't.
I would think sorry don't want to get involved, you clearly want to pay less than £322 other wise simple you would pay the LABC, when I had LABC involved it was because the local authority was very much involved with my mothers welfare, so to do any illegal work was likely to get caught out doing.
And my attempts to get a local firm to do the work failed, at least within a reasonable time. To be frank I was surprised there was a problem with me doing the work, both my son and I are electricians and we had all the test equipment, which was there for the LABC inspector to see. I am sure the LABC inspector had no idea what a C&G 2391 was, my son had done work in England many times without having any problem getting the completion certificate.
But put yourself in the electricians place, would you get involved for less than £322 in a job which could result in loosing your living, I wouldn't.
No .... my Electrician completed the condition report stating he was inspecting the work of others - he never said he installed them.
He did what was asked, inspected, and documented .... he is not compromised at all.
He did try to argue the case that he inspects the work of others all the time (Landlord certificates) but LABC would not accept that approach.
He did what was asked, inspected, and documented .... he is not compromised at all.
He did try to argue the case that he inspects the work of others all the time (Landlord certificates) but LABC would not accept that approach.
The OP has a set of test results (from the EICR) which were presumably done by someone who knew what they were doing and had the right test gear. So just fill in your own EIC, use the numbers from the EICR, and give that to BC.
When they reject it (which I assume they will), ask for the complaints procedure as mentioned above. If they are not going to accept an EIC, then they will have to say what their reasons are - which will be probably be as unreasonable as they have been so far. In principle, all BC care about is having someone else's signature that can pass the blame onto if there's any comeback. If you are prepared to be more bloody minded than the officials, then eventually they'll get told to back down by their superiors - especially if you keep escalating it and making ever higher level council officials look like jobsworths.
When they reject it (which I assume they will), ask for the complaints procedure as mentioned above. If they are not going to accept an EIC, then they will have to say what their reasons are - which will be probably be as unreasonable as they have been so far. In principle, all BC care about is having someone else's signature that can pass the blame onto if there's any comeback. If you are prepared to be more bloody minded than the officials, then eventually they'll get told to back down by their superiors - especially if you keep escalating it and making ever higher level council officials look like jobsworths.
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I think your in cloud cuckoo land. Trying to play silly with LABC inspectors just means you will get do it again and do it properly. I did manage to get them to back down, by asking for their inspector to be higher qualified than myself, and my training is to level 5. And I did have C&G 2391 etc. And all the meters were laid out for him to see with all the calibration certificates. So in my case he was trying to say two fully qualified electricians were not good enough to sign their own installation certificates.
That is very different to an unqualified guy signing his own, and we were debating it with the LABC inspector before we started, not after it had all been done.
Only way is to get the DNO to supply the garage direct, if not supplied from the house, then Part P is not valid. But since that would cost more, not really an option.
I think that's only the case if one 'gives up too easily'.
Sure, if you keep on dealing only with the BCO, then he/she will undoubtedly say as you suggest. However, if, as Simon suggested, you invoke a formal complaints procedure, it will essentially come out of the BCOs hands and you would then stand a much better chance of getting a better outcome.
However, one regards all the hassle as worthwhile is perhaps a different matter.
Kind Regards, John
For some of us, "it's a matter of principle" from which there is no backing down.
My inclination is exactly the same, and I try to adopt that approach whenever I can. However, there are probably times when I really should (but often don't) allow that to be trumped by 'pragmatism'.
For example, a few years back I had an endless war with a manufacturer's (ridiculous) attempt to wriggle out of a warranty claim on a kitchen appliance. I eventually won but when, in retrospect, I thought about it, if I costed the time I had expended in that war "at my usual hourly rate" I could probably have bought half a dozen brand new appliances for what the exercise had 'cost' me! If I had unlimited money, then sticking to the "matter of principle" would be fair enough, but .....!!
Kind Regards, John
Just to bring it back to problem in hand …. I am not a registered electrician, I had agreed with my electrician that he would carry out inspection and certification.
He was happy to do so …’certifying work of others’, the Council will not accept his inspection and certifying as “Domestic Electrical Condition Report' under requirements for Electrical Installations - BS7671 IET Wiring Regulations.”
They want certification of original electrician, or pay them to do it.
He was happy to do so …’certifying work of others’, the Council will not accept his inspection and certifying as “Domestic Electrical Condition Report' under requirements for Electrical Installations - BS7671 IET Wiring Regulations.”
They want certification of original electrician, or pay them to do it.
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